From rich.warren at BTINTERNET.COM Tue Apr 29 17:23:20 2003 From: rich.warren at BTINTERNET.COM (rich.warren) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:23:20 -0500 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals Message-ID: And 'California Brainstorm' Rich W ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill & Cynthia" To: Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: Re: HW: Sabbaticals > The Business Trip Live should be added to your list. > > Cheers > Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr _ Technical" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 5:18 AM > Subject: Re: HW: Sabbaticals > > > > Okay, so Palace Springs and Electric Teepee should be my next 2 buys, > > correct? Anyone got any more info on Capt. Rizz? > > From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Tue Apr 1 05:39:44 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 11:39:44 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind MP3's In-Reply-To: Doug Pearson's message of Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:28:26 -0500 Message-ID: Doug Pearson writes: > >In the case of items such as CD's the buyers generally know the rough > >resale price of a CD which is modified by the band's popularity and > >sometimes by rarity of the release. > > > >The retailer can't charge any more for an item than the consumer is > >willing to pay and what the consumer is willing to pay will depend in > >part on what the consumer calculates that they can recover on resale of > >the item. > > > >That makes for a top price. Obviously effects like competition from > >other retailers might force that price lower for any particular > >retailer. > > > >Not that these are the only factors affecting pricing, but the resale > >value is a factor which affects price. > > This explains why some secondhand CD's cost more than others, but it > doesn't explain how, as you say, "if the band are on a percentage royalty > then a healthy secondhand market does add to their income". I think THAT > is the statement that Jon is confused about - I certainly am! OK, suppose the very second you bought any CD that its secondhand value went to zero price. That is that there was no source through which you could obtain any money for resale of the item. The theory goes that the effect would be that the maximum price you would be willing to pay for the new item would drop to some extent. Basically people are willing to pay a certain amount of notional rent on an item plus whatever they estimate it's worth on resale. Therefore if an item has some resale value then the price they're willing to pay for new rises. To the extent that this raises the royalty of the band and to the extent that competition permits retailers to reach towards this price, the royalty to the band increases. Further than that, I guess you'll have to take it up with the theorists. It makes sense to me, but then I like to read about economics so my mileage might clearly vary. > The statement doesn't make any sense to me, since bands don't get any > royalty percentages from secondhand sales. Precisely so, but this doesn't mean that the secondhand market doesn't lead to income for the band. > If anything, it seems to me > that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's income, > since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to spend on the band's > releases. People only have a finite amount of funds to spend on anything. What retailers and advertisers try to do is change their preferences as to what they'll spend those funds on. Sure, someone might buy two secondhand CD's instead of a new one, and the band might have gained more from the new sale. However someone who might not pay full price might buy secondhand and thus raise the price of the new sale for the next guy. In fact if kollectors were sure they'd never sell and didn't want to leave a Hawkwind collection as a bequest, it'd be in their interest to wipe out the secondhand market and cut the new sale price. > Just as you describe "basic piracy", secondhand sales do not > help a band economically "unless it serves to bring new buyers into the > process" I disagree with this on the basis of the above argument. > Also (as an aside), I seriously doubt that very many people buy new CD's > (unlike new cars) with any consideration as to what the resale value might > be They might not have this conciously foremost in their mind, but I contend that it's part of the background calculation. Suppose CD's were like nuclear waste and that if someone decided to get rid of one it would cost them a lot of money (I.e there's an even lower resale price than zero). Do you suppose that this wouldn't affect sales? On a less extreme scale we have domestic equipment such as fridges which cost cash to remove (and they're talking about it here for old computers). Wouldn't this affect fridge sales to at least the extent that a fridge for the bedroom might be skipped? > (the notable exception being pre-fab "collectors' items", limited > editions, and the like). If that were the case, nobody would buy top-40 > releases, because those will all necessarily have lower resale values due > to excessive supply. Also more people interested in buying them later simply because they're more known. Most of the record companies love their back catalogues of ppular artists and certainly most record shops near me would give some cash for a David Bowie CD that they won't for an Ian Boddy one. Ian Boddy is much rarer but the dude figures that more people know Bowie and he's likely to have to give it room on the shelves for a lot less time. > I wish I could cite actual papers, but some of the > most interesting recent findings in economics have been studies showing > that consumers (including consumers of stocks & securities) do *not* behave > in the "rational" manner that the current supposed laws of economics were > presumed to dictate. I've no argument with that. Nobody however is suggesting that consumers are irrational either. When consumers behave other than theory predicts then that means to most economists that there are some interesting factors that the theory is missing. As you've also pointed out, it can't be a perfect information market either since nobody can know what someone will pay secondhand and how soon. The secondhand record shop dudes make income or not byt making their best guess and consumers conciously or unconcisouly do the same when estimating secondhand value. Even on rare items I make this calculation all the time. I just paid 64 quid for the UFO Silver Machine single which was a promo. Do I believe that I could get 64 quid back if I resold? Possibly, but unlikely. I believe I paid a premium just to ensure winning the Ebay auction but not so much of a premium that the difference between what I paid and what I'd get is too high a notional rent for me to hold the item in a kollection. Of course technically, due to Ebay's bidding system, I only paid one Pound more than the next guy's bid, but I have to guarantee the next guy will bid next time. The trick about economics is that it's about people's *real* preferences rather than what they might claim to an opinion pollster or do in a vote that costs them nothing because they'll get it back again at the next election. When people have to pass over the magic chits in the knowledge that they'll never get them back to spend on the other option, there's no room to lie. What they buy reveals what they actually want and what precisely they're prepared to sacrifice as an option to get it. In that people lie routinely about damn nnear everything else, I think we should look at the poor economists' crystal balls as half full, and impressively so, rather than half empty. FoFP From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Tue Apr 1 07:14:31 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:14:31 +0100 Subject: The Algerian Agenda - revealed! Message-ID: Hawkwind fans will know that Hawkwind cancelled the last two dates on the Winter tour in order to attend a last-minute invite to Algeria. The reasons for this can now be released and will undoubtedly delight all Hawkwind fans. After the success of the TV series "Dune" and "Children of Dune", a movie will be made of "God Emperor of Dune". Due to the influence of two well-known fans in Hollywood, Hawkwind have been given parts in the move as representatives of The Spacers Guild. It is understood that the band will also provide some "unearthly" electronic music to be used in the space travel scenes. From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Tue Apr 1 08:56:58 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:56:58 -0500 Subject: Hawkwind MP3's In-Reply-To: <200303311928.OAA03510@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 02:28:26PM -0500, Doug Pearson wrote: => On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:25:57 +0100, M Holmes wrote: => >In the case of items such as CD's the buyers generally know the rough => >resale price of a CD which is modified by the band's popularity and => >sometimes by rarity of the release. => > => >The retailer can't charge any more for an item than the consumer is => >willing to pay and what the consumer is willing to pay will depend in => >part on what the consumer calculates that they can recover on resale of => >the item. => > => >That makes for a top price. Obviously effects like competition from => >other retailers might force that price lower for any particular => >retailer. => > => >Not that these are the only factors affecting pricing, but the resale => >value is a factor which affects price. => => This explains why some secondhand CD's cost more than others, but it => doesn't explain how, as you say, "if the band are on a percentage royalty => then a healthy secondhand market does add to their income". I think THAT => is the statement that Jon is confused about - I certainly am! => => The statement doesn't make any sense to me, since bands don't get any => royalty percentages from secondhand sales. I think the point Mike is making is that, indirectly, bands *do* get royalty percentages from secondhand sales. The rationale goes something like this: if there is no secondhand/resale market for an item, that item will be priced lower at its initial release. (No after-market value will tend to lower the "value" of the item, hence the buyer will be unwilling to pay a high price, unlike an item which does have a good after-market value, in which part of that initial higher price can be recouped through subsequent resale.) The initial sale price is the one from which the band derives its royalty income. So, if a good resale market allows the record company to make the retail sticker price higher, the band will benefit from this in higher royalty payments. => If anything, it seems to me => that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's income, => since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to spend on the band's => releases. But fans are more likely to buy new releases (they're the "early adopters":), being unwilling to wait until they filter down into secondhand channels. I presume record companies time their releases carefully, so as not to have too much new product out at one time, and also to time releases to occur at traditionally high spending times. => Also (as an aside), I seriously doubt that very many people buy new CD's => (unlike new cars) with any consideration as to what the resale value might => be (the notable exception being pre-fab "collectors' items", limited => editions, and the like). If that were the case, nobody would buy top-40 => releases, because those will all necessarily have lower resale values due => to excessive supply. To be fair, Mike didn't say resale value was the only (or even the main) factor affecting pricing. I think there are lots. A healthy resale or collectors market indicates a fundamental strength of a band to retain listeners over time, boosting their "value" with a record label. With Top 40 acts, I think hype/bandwagonning often drives the "value" of their releases. Ultimately, though, "value" (perceived or real) translates into retail price, and a higher "value" placed on an item by buyers will usually result in a higher relative price. I don't buy albums with a view to selling them, so I can't comment on how prevalent is that side of buying rationale. But, my local record shops have large secondhand sections with a high turnover, so obviously there are some people that do. You also have to factor in nowadays that technology makes it easier to clone albums. So, people who previously might have made a cassette copy of an LP they sold can now make a perfect clone of a CD onto CD-R. Throw inexpensive scanners into the mix and it's possible for < $1 for someone to retain all the intellectual property on a retail CD release. The surrender of "value" in that case is much less than before, so I think the inclination to resell, and hence it being an explicit factor in purchase will probably rise, if anything. Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "Of course the *people* don't want war. [...] But, after all, it is the *leaders* of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. [...] Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country." --- Hermann Goering during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials From Andy.Ball at RD.BBC.CO.UK Tue Apr 1 09:12:00 2003 From: Andy.Ball at RD.BBC.CO.UK (Andy Ball) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:12:00 +0100 Subject: The Algerian Agenda - revealed! In-Reply-To: <200304011214.h31CEVkN007973@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: Is this for real hehe? It is 1st April, but past midday in the UK. Still a few hours in the state I guess for April fool jokes! Cheers, Andy At 13:14 01/04/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Hawkwind fans will know that Hawkwind cancelled the last two dates on >the Winter tour in order to attend a last-minute invite to Algeria. The >reasons for this can now be released and will undoubtedly delight all >Hawkwind fans. > >After the success of the TV series "Dune" and "Children of Dune", a >movie will be made of "God Emperor of Dune". Due to the influence of two >well-known fans in Hollywood, Hawkwind have been given parts in the move >as representatives of The Spacers Guild. It is understood that the band >will also provide some "unearthly" electronic music to be used in the >space travel scenes. From beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 1 11:34:47 2003 From: beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Allen) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:34:47 +0100 Subject: HW: Hawkwind in Belfast Message-ID: How unhappy was I to learn that Hawkwind's management had contacted a promoter in Belfast to book a show, only to call them back an hour later to cancel it again? :< Makes me sad. From boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK Tue Apr 1 13:29:30 2003 From: boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Hawkwind) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:29:30 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind in Belfast Message-ID: > > Hi Chris, > > > > Could you give me a few details of this > > > > > > 1) Which promoter in Belfast was contacted? > > > > 2) Who contacted them? > > > > 3) From which source did you come about this information? > > > > We have not contacted any promoter in Belfast and booked then cancelled a > > show, so if this is true, the above details would be very handy. > > > > Stuff like this makes me sad too and could prevent genuine bookings! > > > > Thanks > > > > Kris > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chris Allen > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:34 PM > > Subject: HW: Hawkwind in Belfast > > > > > > How unhappy was I to learn that Hawkwind's management had contacted a > > promoter in Belfast to book a show, only to call them back an hour later > to > > cancel it again? > > > > :< > > > > Makes me sad. > > > > > > > From cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET Tue Apr 1 14:06:14 2003 From: cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET (cosmicdolphin) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:06:14 -0600 Subject: HW: Tim Blake - Caldea Music II Message-ID: I finally managed to pick up a copy of Tims new CD at the weekend. I've had it on repeat ever since. It's simply a beautiful synth chill album. A Pleasure from start to finish. There isn't a bad track. It's purely instrumental! Christian Boule contributes some wonderful Glissando Guitar on one track (Floating). And Tim has dusted off his analogue synths. I would even say this is his best album to date. Crystal Machine and New Jerusalem, may have some great highs, but this whole CD sits in happily with them. :-) Rich W From boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK Tue Apr 1 14:02:51 2003 From: boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Hawkwind) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:02:51 +0100 Subject: HW: Hawkwind in Belfast Message-ID: Hi Chris, Could you give me a few details of this 1) Which promoter in Belfast was contacted? 2) Who contacted them? 3) From which source did you come by this information? We have not contacted any promoter in Belfast and booked then cancelled a show, so if this is true, the above details would be very handy. Stuff like this makes me sad too and could prevent genuine bookings! Thanks Kris ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chris Allen > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:34 PM > > Subject: HW: Hawkwind in Belfast > > > > > > How unhappy was I to learn that Hawkwind's management had contacted a > > promoter in Belfast to book a show, only to call them back an hour later > to > > cancel it again? > > > > :< > > > > Makes me sad. > > > > > > . ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Allen To: Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 5:34 PM Subject: HW: Hawkwind in Belfast How unhappy was I to learn that Hawkwind's management had contacted a promoter in Belfast to book a show, only to call them back an hour later to cancel it again? :< Makes me sad. From Brian at COULTHARD1.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Apr 1 14:33:35 2003 From: Brian at COULTHARD1.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Brian) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:33:35 +0100 Subject: Off: Ringtones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good Evening all I noticed my new phone uses either midi files for its ring tones and have found Silver Machine Assault and Battery and Quark Strangeness and charm midis on the net. Quark is particularly good. As anyone come across any HW midis anywhere as I would like to broaden my collection. I hope there isn't an official policy coming on swapping midis. Thanks Brian From youless at LVCM.COM Tue Apr 1 15:51:07 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:51:07 -0500 Subject: Off: Ringtones Message-ID: URL for these: http://www.missfantastic.com/audio/midi/classicrock/hawkwind/ Steve ------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:33:35 +0100, Brian wrote: >Good Evening all > I noticed my new phone uses either midi files for its >ring tones and have found Silver Machine Assault and Battery and Quark >Strangeness and charm midis on the net. Quark is particularly good. As >anyone come across any HW midis anywhere as I would like to broaden my >collection. I hope there isn't an official policy coming on swapping >midis. >Thanks >Brian From t.byrne at NTLWORLD.COM Tue Apr 1 17:35:49 2003 From: t.byrne at NTLWORLD.COM (t.byrne) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 23:35:49 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - 31 Mar 2003 to 1 Apr 2003 (#2003-104) Message-ID: A magnificent effort. Very funny. Tom > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:30:33 -0500 > From: Dave Law > Subject: HAWKWIND MUSEUM - WORLD EXCLUSIVE > > the curators of the hawkwind museum would like to invite all members of > the BOC-L group to view the "world exclusive" pictures of the band that > have just been posted to the site. we don't want to say too much, but this > is a previously unknown side to the band, that we for one, were not aware > of. to find these gems either go to www.hawkwindmuseum.co.uk and look for > the "world exclusive" header on the homepage, or to straight to them it's > www.hawkwindmuseum.co.uk/hawkfilm.htm . i hope you find this stuff as > interesting as we did and we look foreward to you comment either to the > newsgroup or to us directly at the museum. thanks a lot, dave and simon > > ------------------------------ > > End of BOC-L Digest - 31 Mar 2003 to 1 Apr 2003 (#2003-104) > *********************************************************** From wjbell at MAIL2.GIS.NET Tue Apr 1 19:11:36 2003 From: wjbell at MAIL2.GIS.NET (Warrick Bell) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:11:36 -0500 Subject: BOC: Burning for You on VH1 80's Message-ID: Hello BOC-L, I have VH1's "I Love the 80's: 1987" going in the background, and over the opening sequence they were playing "Burning for You." It reappeared as background music a few times later in the episode too. But didn't FoUO come out in 1980? -- Warrick mailto:wjbell at mail2.gis.net From ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Apr 1 20:14:03 2003 From: ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM (Albert Bouchard) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:14:03 -0500 Subject: BOC: Burning for You on VH1 80's In-Reply-To: <1815584094.20030401191136@mail2.gis.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 07:11 PM, Warrick Bell wrote: > But didn't FoUO come out in 1980? 1981 I believe. We were working on it in fall of 80 when John Lennon got killed. Maybe FoUO was about him. It was a record for the 80's fer sure. I started Imaginos in January 1982 but it seemed more like a late 80s record. From senator at BOLIVAR.UGCS.CALTECH.EDU Tue Apr 1 22:38:21 2003 From: senator at BOLIVAR.UGCS.CALTECH.EDU (Bill Bradley) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:38:21 -0800 Subject: BOC: Burning for You on VH1 80's In-Reply-To: <649FD42A-64A8-11D7-95C3-000A2794A214@mindspring.com> from "Albert Bouchard" at Apr 01, 2003 08:14:03 PM Message-ID: > On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 07:11 PM, Warrick Bell wrote: > > > But didn't FoUO come out in 1980? > > 1981 I believe. We were working on it in fall of 80 when John Lennon > got killed. Maybe FoUO was about him. It was a record for the 80's fer > sure. I started Imaginos in January 1982 but it seemed more like a late > 80s record. At least the title track was written earlier since it was recorded for Agents of Fortune, but not used) [see bonus track on the recent release] as was a version for Patti Smith's 1979 album Wave [also only released as a bonus track] Bill From senator at BOLIVAR.UGCS.CALTECH.EDU Tue Apr 1 22:40:48 2003 From: senator at BOLIVAR.UGCS.CALTECH.EDU (Bill Bradley) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:40:48 -0800 Subject: BOC: Burning for You on VH1 80's In-Reply-To: <649FD42A-64A8-11D7-95C3-000A2794A214@mindspring.com> from "Albert Bouchard" at Apr 01, 2003 08:14:03 PM Message-ID: D'oh! Pardon me as I don't read headers and attempt to correct one of the authors. Bill From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Wed Apr 2 05:43:19 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:43:19 +0100 Subject: HW: Tim Blake - Caldea Music II In-Reply-To: cosmicdolphin's message of Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:06:14 -0600 Message-ID: cosmicdolphin writes: > I finally managed to pick up a copy of Tims new CD at the weekend. > > I've had it on repeat ever since. It's simply a beautiful synth chill = > album. A Pleasure from start to finish. There isn't a bad track. =20 > > It's purely instrumental! Hmmmm :-) : Christian Boule contributes some wonderful = > Glissando Guitar on one track (Floating). And Tim has dusted off his = > analogue synths. Sounds good. I'd also heard that Tim features on a track on a new Boule album? > I would even say this is his best album to date. Crystal Machine and = > New Jerusalem, may have some great highs, but this whole CD sits in = > happily with them. Ordering it now... FoFP From andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG Wed Apr 2 08:34:36 2003 From: andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG (Andrew Apold) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:34:36 -0500 Subject: BOC: Burning for You on VH1 80's Message-ID: > Hello BOC-L, > > I have VH1's "I Love the 80's: 1987" going in the background, and > over the opening sequence they were playing "Burning for You." It > reappeared as background music a few times later in the episode too. > But didn't FoUO come out in 1980? The song is a nomad in the timestream, it came out simultaneously in 1980, 1981, 1987 and a few rogue variants in 1978 (e.g., "The Stoned Age"). From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Wed Apr 2 15:00:57 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:00:57 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind MP3's Message-ID: The bands do not make income out of second hand sales- think about it. In the eyes of all thsoe who record such sales that lead to royalty payments,any second had sale is for an item whose "normal" sale asa new releases has been and gone - in the eyes of the industry, that item no longer exists, therefore the group cannot receive any money directly or indirectly from the sale of a second hand CD. The royalties are determined precisely by the record company based on units shipped of that new release - or back catalogue item - out of the company's offices - nothing else counts. Which is of course precisely why so many bands from the seventies are doing it themselves and trying to secure the rights to their back catalogue from the record companies. On that note, I read to day that the Allman Brothers lost their lawsuit with Universal to try to get their albums from 1970-1979 back from Universal, the ruling from the judge trying the case being that the band had left the claim for too long and therefore had waived their rights to the product concerned. It's a minefield out there people. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Holmes" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: Re: Hawkwind MP3's > Doug Pearson writes: > > > >In the case of items such as CD's the buyers generally know the rough > > >resale price of a CD which is modified by the band's popularity and > > >sometimes by rarity of the release. > > > > > >The retailer can't charge any more for an item than the consumer is > > >willing to pay and what the consumer is willing to pay will depend in > > >part on what the consumer calculates that they can recover on resale of > > >the item. > > > > > >That makes for a top price. Obviously effects like competition from > > >other retailers might force that price lower for any particular > > >retailer. > > > > > >Not that these are the only factors affecting pricing, but the resale > > >value is a factor which affects price. > > > > This explains why some secondhand CD's cost more than others, but it > > doesn't explain how, as you say, "if the band are on a percentage royalty > > then a healthy secondhand market does add to their income". I think THAT > > is the statement that Jon is confused about - I certainly am! > > OK, suppose the very second you bought any CD that its secondhand value > went to zero price. That is that there was no source through which you > could obtain any money for resale of the item. The theory goes that the > effect would be that the maximum price you would be willing to pay for > the new item would drop to some extent. Basically people are willing to > pay a certain amount of notional rent on an item plus whatever they > estimate it's worth on resale. Therefore if an item has some resale > value then the price they're willing to pay for new rises. To the extent > that this raises the royalty of the band and to the extent that > competition permits retailers to reach towards this price, the royalty > to the band increases. > > Further than that, I guess you'll have to take it up with the theorists. > It makes sense to me, but then I like to read about economics so my > mileage might clearly vary. > > > The statement doesn't make any sense to me, since bands don't get any > > royalty percentages from secondhand sales. > > Precisely so, but this doesn't mean that the secondhand market doesn't > lead to income for the band. > > > If anything, it seems to me > > that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's income, > > since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to spend on the band's > > releases. > > People only have a finite amount of funds to spend on anything. What > retailers and advertisers try to do is change their preferences as to > what they'll spend those funds on. Sure, someone might buy two > secondhand CD's instead of a new one, and the band might have gained > more from the new sale. However someone who might not pay full price > might buy secondhand and thus raise the price of the new sale for the > next guy. In fact if kollectors were sure they'd never sell and didn't > want to leave a Hawkwind collection as a bequest, it'd be in their > interest to wipe out the secondhand market and cut the new sale price. > > > Just as you describe "basic piracy", secondhand sales do not > > help a band economically "unless it serves to bring new buyers into the > > process" > > I disagree with this on the basis of the above argument. > > > Also (as an aside), I seriously doubt that very many people buy new CD's > > (unlike new cars) with any consideration as to what the resale value might > > be > > They might not have this conciously foremost in their mind, but I > contend that it's part of the background calculation. > > Suppose CD's were like nuclear waste and that if someone decided to get > rid of one it would cost them a lot of money (I.e there's an even lower > resale price than zero). Do you suppose that this wouldn't affect sales? > On a less extreme scale we have domestic equipment such as fridges which > cost cash to remove (and they're talking about it here for old > computers). Wouldn't this affect fridge sales to at least the extent > that a fridge for the bedroom might be skipped? > > > (the notable exception being pre-fab "collectors' items", limited > > editions, and the like). If that were the case, nobody would buy top-40 > > releases, because those will all necessarily have lower resale values due > > to excessive supply. > > Also more people interested in buying them later simply because they're > more known. Most of the record companies love their back catalogues of > ppular artists and certainly most record shops near me would give some > cash for a David Bowie CD that they won't for an Ian Boddy one. Ian > Boddy is much rarer but the dude figures that more people know Bowie and > he's likely to have to give it room on the shelves for a lot less time. > > > I wish I could cite actual papers, but some of the > > most interesting recent findings in economics have been studies showing > > that consumers (including consumers of stocks & securities) do *not* behave > > in the "rational" manner that the current supposed laws of economics were > > presumed to dictate. > > I've no argument with that. Nobody however is suggesting that consumers > are irrational either. When consumers behave other than theory predicts > then that means to most economists that there are some interesting > factors that the theory is missing. As you've also pointed out, it can't > be a perfect information market either since nobody can know what > someone will pay secondhand and how soon. The secondhand record shop > dudes make income or not byt making their best guess and consumers > conciously or unconcisouly do the same when estimating secondhand value. > > Even on rare items I make this calculation all the time. I just paid 64 > quid for the UFO Silver Machine single which was a promo. Do I believe > that I could get 64 quid back if I resold? Possibly, but unlikely. I > believe I paid a premium just to ensure winning the Ebay auction but not > so much of a premium that the difference between what I paid and what > I'd get is too high a notional rent for me to hold the item in a > kollection. > > Of course technically, due to Ebay's bidding system, I only paid one > Pound more than the next guy's bid, but I have to guarantee the next guy > will bid next time. > > The trick about economics is that it's about people's *real* preferences > rather than what they might claim to an opinion pollster or do in a vote > that costs them nothing because they'll get it back again at the next > election. When people have to pass over the magic chits in the knowledge > that they'll never get them back to spend on the other option, there's > no room to lie. What they buy reveals what they actually want and what > precisely they're prepared to sacrifice as an option to get it. In that > people lie routinely about damn nnear everything else, I think we should > look at the poor economists' crystal balls as half full, and > impressively so, rather than half empty. > > FoFP From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 2 16:42:04 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:42:04 -0500 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: Mike, your economic theory is (nearly) impeccable; unfortunately, the theory you present is not reflected in reality. Let me start with some examples ... Shortly after the CD format was introduced, EMI Japan released a CD version of the Beatles' 'Abbey Road', that was withdrawn a couple years before EMI reissued the complete Beatles back catalog worldwide. For those couple of years, the Japanese 'Abbey Road' CD changed hands on the secondhand market for around $200. According to your argument, this high secondhand price would be reflected in a higher sale price for the reissued 'Abbey Road'. However, the 'Abbey Road' CD has always sold for exactly the same price as the rest of the Beatles back catalog, which never had such a high secondhand price. OK, let's say you reject that example on the grounds that only one CD from the Beatles' back catalog was on the secondhand market, period, so you can't compare it to the other CD's in their back catalog. Take David Bowie's back catalog, originally released on CD by RCA shortly before their contract with Bowie expired. As soon as the contract expired, the CD's were deleted, and only available secondhand. Again, they fetched higher- than-average CD prices, although more in the $25-$40 range than the $200 range. The most popular titles ('Ziggy Stardust', for instance) commanded closer to $40-$50, while less-popular titles (like 'Lodger') would only sell for $15-$25. According to your theory, reissues of the former would sell for more than reissues of the latter. Yet, when Rykodisc revamped the Bowie catalog a few years later, all the titles sold for the same price. (Now, I'm sure that Bowie *has* subsequently received more royalties from sales of 'Ziggy' than sales of 'Lodger', but that's because 'Ziggy' is a more popular album that has sold more copies, not because it sold for more secondhand when it was out of print.) And it will be the same with Hawkwind when (if?) 'Warrior' through 'Hawklords' are reissued. I haven't been following eBay THAT closely, but it seems that 'Hawklords' commands a higher secondhand price than 'Quark', owing, I would assume, to the rarity of the former (it probably sold fewer copies, plus there was only one pressing, by Virgin, wheras 'Quark' was available from both Virgin and Griffin). Does this mean that EMI (or whoever) is going to charge more for 'Hawklords' than 'Quark'? Of course not! So even though your theory is *logical*, the evidence shows that it is not accurate, and for very good reasons ... On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 11:39:44 +0100, M Holmes wrote: >Doug Pearson writes: >> This explains why some secondhand CD's cost more than others, but it >> doesn't explain how, as you say, "if the band are on a percentage royalty >> then a healthy secondhand market does add to their income". I think THAT >> is the statement that Jon is confused about - I certainly am! > >OK, suppose the very second you bought any CD that its secondhand value >went to zero price. That is that there was no source through which you >could obtain any money for resale of the item. The theory goes that the >effect would be that the maximum price you would be willing to pay for >the new item would drop to some extent. Basically people are willing to >pay a certain amount of notional rent on an item plus whatever they >estimate it's worth on resale. Therefore if an item has some resale >value then the price they're willing to pay for new rises. This is true only under the assumption that CD buyers are, indeed, taking into account the resale value of a CD when they buy one, whether new or used (reasoning flaw #1). The reality is, consumers care no more about the resale value of CD's than they do the resale value of a restaurant meal or a movie ticket or a foreign vacation (all three of which are, of course, zero). Economic theories that apply to automobile or home buying don't necessarily apply to CD purchases. (See below for more on this.) >To the extent >that this raises the royalty of the band and to the extent that >competition permits retailers to reach towards this price, the royalty >to the band increases. This isn't the way the music business works (reasoning flaw #2). Royalties are not based on retail prices - a band receives the same royalty for copies of the same CD title, whether it has a $14 price tag on it or a $16 price tag. If on a percentage royalty, bands receive a percentage of what the *label* (manufacturer) takes in, not what retailers take in (as Andy G states in his message). >Further than that, I guess you'll have to take it up with the theorists. >It makes sense to me, but then I like to read about economics so my >mileage might clearly vary. I don't doubt that these theories hold true for some markets, but they don't hold true for secondhand CD's and record label royalty rates. Like I said, the theory is logical and makes sense to me (thanks for the detailed explanation, sometimes I'm a bit slow), but the reality is contrary to the theory in this case. >> The statement doesn't make any sense to me, since bands don't get any >> royalty percentages from secondhand sales. > >Precisely so, but this doesn't mean that the secondhand market doesn't >lead to income for the band. I think that, at best, a secondhand market can be an *indicator* of potential future income to a band. I can certainly see that correlation, but I don't see any direct causality (see the Bowie example above). >> If anything, it seems to me >> that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's income, >> since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to spend on the band's >> releases. > >People only have a finite amount of funds to spend on anything. What >retailers and advertisers try to do is change their preferences as to >what they'll spend those funds on. Sure, someone might buy two >secondhand CD's instead of a new one, and the band might have gained >more from the new sale. However someone who might not pay full price >might buy secondhand and thus raise the price of the new sale for the >next guy. Huh? This doesn't sit well with basic economic theory. If someone has bought secondhand CD's in lieu of new ones, that's an indication of *decreased supply* of secondhand CD's (theoretically leading to higher prices for those), but there's no change to either supply or demand of new CD's (if anything, the demand for new CD's is decreased, which is supposed to lead to lower, not higher, prices). >> Just as you describe "basic piracy", secondhand sales do not >> help a band economically "unless it serves to bring new buyers into the >> process" > >I disagree with this on the basis of the above argument. And I've pointed two significant flaws in the above argument (and cited examples that run counter to it) ... >> I wish I could cite actual papers, but some of the >> most interesting recent findings in economics have been studies showing >> that consumers (including consumers of stocks & securities) do *not* >> behave in the "rational" manner that the current supposed laws of >> economics were presumed to dictate. > >I've no argument with that. Nobody however is suggesting that consumers >are irrational either. It depends on what you mean by "irrational". If by that, you mean, "acting in a random, unpredictable, and unquantifiable manner that cannot be understood", I agree with you completely; there certainly are reasons to consumers' behavior (it's just that I believe that reasoning is better understood by the science of behavioral psychology than by the science of economics). However, if you mean, "acting contrary to their own economic best interests", I'd strongly disagree! One only needs to look at consumer debt levels (credit card balances) in the USA to see that many (most?) consumers do not act in their best economic self-interest. >When consumers behave other than theory predicts >then that means to most economists that there are some interesting >factors that the theory is missing. Yes, exactly. In this case, what's missing is an accurate explanation of consumer behavior, which I believe is best explained in mostly non-economic terms. >The trick about economics is that it's about people's *real* preferences >rather than what they might claim to an opinion pollster or do in a vote >that costs them nothing because they'll get it back again at the next >election. Right. The catch is that real peoples' real economic preferences are mostly based on non-economic reasons (buying a vaccum cleaner because your carpet's dirty isn't an economic reason, buying a Barry White CD because you think it will get your next date "in the mood" isn't an economic reason). Most people don't buy CD's because they're an investment (the economic reason), they buy them because they want to hear the music (the behavioral psychology reason). >When people have to pass over the magic chits in the knowledge >that they'll never get them back to spend on the other option, there's >no room to lie. What they buy reveals what they actually want and what >precisely they're prepared to sacrifice as an option to get it. Yes and no ... consumer purchases are definitely a good indicator of what people "really want", but the prevalence of consumer credit does give "room to lie" in that it allows consumers to spend more than they actually have, therefore, in effect, casting more votes than they have. >In that >people lie routinely about damn nnear everything else, I think we should >look at the poor economists' crystal balls as half full, and >impressively so, rather than half empty. I'd concur that economic predictions tend to be about as accurate as weather forcasts (both are sciences in which not all of the relavent variables are yet fully understood or even known ... just like behavioral psychology), which are frequently correct. But attempting to use economic theory to make claims counter to reality does not inspire my confidence in academic economists (somehow, I have a feeling that if California's legislators had applied the same rigorous challenge to the economic claims made by energy companies' lobbyists a few years ago that I'm applying to yours, the state wouldn't have gotten itself into the deregulatory mess that it did). The economic theories that (accurately) apply to the sale of milk are not the same as those that apply to the sale of used/new CD's, or houses, or automobiles, or sporting event tickets - they're all similar in some ways, but radically different in others. And I'll certainly concur that there is some degree of correlation between a healthy resale/secondhand market, and an artist's "new product" sales, but those are both effects of the same cause, not an independent cause-and- effect. Damn! Fascinating discussion. Too bad we didn't get to go over all this on friday over pints. That would be much more fun than typing ... -Doug (who knows even less about behavioral psychology than he does about economic theory, but at least knows a thing or two about the music biz, although Andy G probably knows much more!) jasret at mindspring.com From rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK Wed Apr 2 18:01:12 2003 From: rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK (Richard Lockwood) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:01:12 +0100 Subject: HW: Cats Message-ID: Just forwarding a note I posted on another mailing list... :-) Cheers, Rich. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Lockwood To: techniqueandferret@*********.*** Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [techniqueandferret] Re: Technical Specifications It was a long time ago. Zarozinia is now getting on for fifteen years old and spends most of her time asleep and dribbling. Her sister (Arioch) is still alive, and her (Arioch) first set of kittens (who all died when they looked like baby guinea pigs) were buried with the gravestone reading "Xiombarg, Slortar,..." and various other dukes of Chaos that I can't remember off the top of my head right now... When I brought a pregnant Zarozinia back to Huddersfield, a couple of teachers that my mum knew came to see the kittens. One of them said "Oh, 'Zarozinia' - isn't that a Hawkwind song? Let's have a kitten and call it 'Hawkwind'" Now *that*'s cool. :-) Cheers, Rich. (I don't know if you have, but I've got a Silver Machine, I'm currently in a High Rise, making plans to be an Urban Guerilla) :-) And Corum, And Erekose etc First copies lying around are still priced in ?.s.d. Eternal Champion and Phoenix in Obsidian were the first two read. Many years ago. Shame he killed her....again! Cheers Neil --- In techniqueandferret at yahoogroups.com, erobertson at f... wrote: > > "(Could have sworn I posted a pic of Zarozinia on the files section...)" > > I'm going to put extremely good odds on someone having read and enjoyed > Michael Moorcock's "Elric" series :) > > Euan > From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Apr 3 02:13:15 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 02:13:15 -0500 Subject: OFF: BOC: Metallica "slash" fiction Message-ID: This is truly bizarre ... homophobic Metallica fans will NOT want to read it! I have no idea what to think of the concept of Imaginos-analysis (well, sort of) as "pillow talk". http://www.sphosting.com/mynxkittie/main/fiction/rps/CallMeDesdinova.html (note : the site contains an 18-or-older disclaimer, but there's nothing graphic in this link) (or see the main page for other musician "real person slash" like Trent Reznor/Eminem - http://www.sphosting.com/mynxkittie/main/rps.html ) -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Apr 3 05:12:20 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:12:20 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind MP3's In-Reply-To: Andrew Garibaldi's message of Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:00:57 +0100 Message-ID: Andrew Garibaldi writes: > The bands do not make income out of second hand sales- think about it. I have and I contend that economic theory is correct in that if the resale value of all CD's went to zero on initial purchase then their new price would drop and bands on a percentage would receive less royalties. > In > the eyes of all thsoe who record such sales that lead to royalty > payments,any second had sale is for an item whose "normal" sale asa new > releases has been and gone - in the eyes of the industry, that item no > longer exists, therefore the group cannot receive any money directly or > indirectly from the sale of a second hand CD. They can receive no *more* money but they have already received their royalties on secondhand buys in the original purchase. > The royalties are determined > precisely by the record company based on units shipped of that new release - > or back catalogue item - out of the company's offices - nothing else counts. Precisely so, and the royalties on seconhand sales are, by definition, included in those sales. Of course if anyone wants to argue that the secondhand value of CD's is zero then have at it, but I've *seen* people pay for secondhand stuff, and even while sober. FoFP From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Apr 3 05:53:59 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:53:59 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Doug Pearson's message of Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:42:04 -0500 Message-ID: Doug Pearson writes: > Mike, your economic theory is (nearly) impeccable; unfortunately, the > theory you present is not reflected in reality. Let me start with some > examples ... > > Shortly after the CD format was introduced, EMI Japan released a CD version > of the Beatles' 'Abbey Road', that was withdrawn a couple years before EMI > reissued the complete Beatles back catalog worldwide. For those couple of > years, the Japanese 'Abbey Road' CD changed hands on the secondhand market > for around $200. According to your argument, this high secondhand price > would be reflected in a higher sale price for the reissued 'Abbey Road'. Nope, that simply shows that for other reasons, the retailers weren't willing to either release the item in the quantities demanded, or to charge the price the market would bear for the limited release. Once again: there are *OTHER* factors in pricing. Secondhand value is simply one more effect. > OK, let's say you reject that example on the grounds that only one CD from > the Beatles' back catalog was on the secondhand market, period, so you > can't compare it to the other CD's in their back catalog. Take David > Bowie's back catalog, originally released on CD by RCA shortly before their > contract with Bowie expired. As soon as the contract expired, the CD's > were deleted, and only available secondhand. Again, they fetched higher- > than-average CD prices, although more in the $25-$40 range than the $200 > range. The most popular titles ('Ziggy Stardust', for instance) commanded > closer to $40-$50, while less-popular titles (like 'Lodger') would only > sell for $15-$25. According to your theory, reissues of the former would > sell for more than reissues of the latter. Yet, when Rykodisc revamped the > Bowie catalog a few years later, all the titles sold for the same price. > (Now, I'm sure that Bowie *has* subsequently received more royalties from > sales of 'Ziggy' than sales of 'Lodger', but that's because 'Ziggy' is a > more popular album that has sold more copies, not because it sold for more > secondhand when it was out of print.) It's also a non-perfect market. Secondhand value is *estimated* conciously or unconciously by buyers of new product. They may not know how rare a particular product will turn out to be, or indeed how popular. Thus they may estimate the secondhand value as more or less "the normal amount plus maybe a little extra because it's Bowie". > So even though your theory is *logical*, the evidence shows that it is not > accurate, and for very good reasons ... Sorry, but the evidence indicates that it's quite accurate. It also indicates that these aren't perfect information markets and that the theory won't be predictive in every single case. On *average* though, bands receive more royalties on new purchases because of a positive secondhand value than they would if people were shot if they ever sold secondhand and the value went zero or negative. > This is true only under the assumption that CD buyers are, indeed, taking > into account the resale value of a CD when they buy one, whether new or > used (reasoning flaw #1). Please show why this is a flaw. > The reality is, consumers care no more about the > resale value of CD's than they do the resale value of a restaurant meal or > a movie ticket or a foreign vacation (all three of which are, of course, > zero). Indeed. > >To the extent > >that this raises the royalty of the band and to the extent that > >competition permits retailers to reach towards this price, the royalty > >to the band increases. > > This isn't the way the music business works (reasoning flaw #2). Royalties > are not based on retail prices - a band receives the same royalty for > copies of the same CD title, whether it has a $14 price tag on it or a $16 > price tag. OK, I thought I'd made it pretty clear that the argument applies only if the band royalties were a percantage (or vary in some other way with) the retail price. > If on a percentage royalty, bands receive a percentage of what > the *label* (manufacturer) takes in, not what retailers take in (as Andy G > states in his message). The argument still applies wherever a higher retail price means a higher price for the label. Not otherwise. > >Further than that, I guess you'll have to take it up with the theorists. > >It makes sense to me, but then I like to read about economics so my > >mileage might clearly vary. > > I don't doubt that these theories hold true for some markets, but they > don't hold true for secondhand CD's and record label royalty rates. Like I > said, the theory is logical and makes sense to me (thanks for the detailed > explanation, sometimes I'm a bit slow), but the reality is contrary to the > theory in this case. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that you're right, but I'd need more evidence than a couple of examples. How about some thought experiments: let's say that the resale value of CD's were negative, say either you got charged ten times what you paid or you got shot. Do you think that prices would remain the same for new CD's? > >> If anything, it seems to me > >> that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's income, > >> since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to spend on the band's > >> releases. > > > >People only have a finite amount of funds to spend on anything. What > >retailers and advertisers try to do is change their preferences as to > >what they'll spend those funds on. Sure, someone might buy two > >secondhand CD's instead of a new one, and the band might have gained > >more from the new sale. However someone who might not pay full price > >might buy secondhand and thus raise the price of the new sale for the > >next guy. > > Huh? This doesn't sit well with basic economic theory. If someone has > bought secondhand CD's in lieu of new ones, that's an indication of > *decreased supply* of secondhand CD's (theoretically leading to higher > prices for those), but there's no change to either supply or demand of new > CD's (if anything, the demand for new CD's is decreased, which is supposed > to lead to lower, not higher, prices). I didn't express myself clearly enough. Someone buying secondhand CD's would raise the *new* price a little. > >> Just as you describe "basic piracy", secondhand sales do not > >> help a band economically "unless it serves to bring new buyers into the > >> process" > > > >I disagree with this on the basis of the above argument. > > And I've pointed two significant flaws in the above argument (and cited > examples that run counter to it) ... I've given the reasons that the examples are counter ones and pointing out flaws doesn't mean much without the evidence or reasoning to show that they are flaws. > >I've no argument with that. Nobody however is suggesting that consumers > >are irrational either. > > It depends on what you mean by "irrational". If by that, you mean, "acting > in a random, unpredictable, and unquantifiable manner that cannot be > understood", I agree with you completely; there certainly are reasons to > consumers' behavior (it's just that I believe that reasoning is better > understood by the science of behavioral psychology than by the science of > economics). However, if you mean, "acting contrary to their own economic > best interests", I'd strongly disagree! One only needs to look at consumer > debt levels (credit card balances) in the USA to see that many (most?) > consumers do not act in their best economic self-interest. Economists would claim that consumers act only in ways that they *perceive* to be in their best interests. As you point out, the prevalence of credit bubbles and other manias in history indicate that even whole societies can for a time have their perception considerably at odds with reality. For my money (heh) the Austrian school of economics has it taped on why this is so (essentially the theory of money illusion under artificially lowered interest rates). Certainly I am convinced that it's more than coincidence that these things almost always occur during periods of falling interest rates and manipulation of interest rates. > >When consumers behave other than theory predicts > >then that means to most economists that there are some interesting > >factors that the theory is missing. We're in utter agreement here. > Yes, exactly. In this case, what's missing is an accurate explanation of > consumer behavior, which I believe is best explained in mostly non-economic > terms. I believe that there are no non-economic terms to pretty much everything. > >The trick about economics is that it's about people's *real* preferences > >rather than what they might claim to an opinion pollster or do in a vote > >that costs them nothing because they'll get it back again at the next > >election. > > Right. The catch is that real peoples' real economic preferences are > mostly based on non-economic reasons (buying a vaccum cleaner because your > carpet's dirty isn't an economic reason Of course it is! You have a scenario where you can see two choices (economics is about choices and only choices): keep the carpet dirty and live with it, or spend X on getting the tools to clean the carpet and forego the possibility of spending X on beer, CD's or saving up for a rocketship. That's pure economics. > buying a Barry White CD because > you think it will get your next date "in the mood" isn't an economic > reason). Two choices: sex tonight but put up with Barry White or no sex but you have the cash to buy Tim Blake's new CD. Pure economics again. Basically it's the question of how much sex is worth to you. If you imagine that's not an economic question then a quick chat with anyone who's worked in the sex business will quickly reeducate you. > Most people don't buy CD's because they're an investment (the > economic reason), they buy them because they want to hear the music (the > behavioral psychology reason). Choices again. Either would be an economic reason just as paying for a restaurant ticket because they play the album there would be. > >When people have to pass over the magic chits in the knowledge > >that they'll never get them back to spend on the other option, there's > >no room to lie. What they buy reveals what they actually want and what > >precisely they're prepared to sacrifice as an option to get it. > > Yes and no ... consumer purchases are definitely a good indicator of what > people "really want", but the prevalence of consumer credit does give "room > to lie" in that it allows consumers to spend more than they actually > have, A good point. However, while they think there's a chance that they'll have to pay the money back then they're still evincing what economists call "revealed preference". However it is more interesting where credit is concerned. For example there has been some interesting discussion of stockmarket behaviour in recent years (basically the bubble and crash). It seems that when people are playing with "house money" (I.E money they've gained in the bubble) they're more willing to take risks with it. Once they lose their profit in the crash and start playing with their own savings again, they become much more conservative. This has been advanced as a reason for "capitulation" during crashes (basically about halfway down the slide there's a time of huge drops and investors leaving the market). It seems that since most people came in during the mid-90's, we're approaching that point now (a big mystery of this crash has been why there's been no period of capitulation yet). After that comes investor shunning of the bubble markets and the final slide to the bottom. This also shows in the housing bubbles. During periods of falling interest rates buyers seem to price based on monthly interest repayments rather than consider that the actual price is all money that they'll have to pay back along with interest. So where this is prevalent, where rates halve, prices double. This is money illusion and the downside is pretty obvious the minute anyone stops to consider that interest rates must not only ultimately return to the norm, but once disinflatio/deflation are over, they'll inevitably rise above it if fiat money (made up money not backed by commodities stored at the bank) still exists at that point. > therefore, in effect, casting more votes than they have. Again, we're in 100% agreement. We're living in the largest credit bubble there's ever been anywhere in history and future history books will write of a society gone mad in ways that exceed even the Dutch Tulip Bubble where people paid a house and twelve acres for one tulip bulb. > >In that > >people lie routinely about damn nnear everything else, I think we should > >look at the poor economists' crystal balls as half full, and > >impressively so, rather than half empty. > > I'd concur that economic predictions tend to be about as accurate as > weather forcasts (both are sciences in which not all of the relavent > variables are yet fully understood or even known ... just like behavioral > psychology), which are frequently correct. But attempting to use economic > theory to make claims counter to reality does not inspire my confidence in > academic economists (somehow, I have a feeling that if California's > legislators had applied the same rigorous challenge to the economic claims > made by energy companies' lobbyists a few years ago that I'm applying to > yours, the state wouldn't have gotten itself into the deregulatory mess > that it did). The problems were that these weren't anything like the free markets the authorities wanted to pretend them to be. If you dislike free markets and people press for deregulaton then it's a reasonable political strategy to deregulate with rules that will force failure. Your astute politician can then step in, reregulate to save the day and bask in the adoration of the public while blaming the "free markets" that never existed anyway. Add in what looks like the biggest financial fraud conspiracy in three generations (Insul was the last of this size before Enron in the west) and you have a pretty heady mix. Expecting any free market model to work under these circumstances is like trying to shovel hot coals with an ice lolly. > The economic theories that (accurately) apply to the sale of > milk are not the same as those that apply to the sale of used/new CD's, or > houses, or automobiles, or sporting event tickets - they're all similar in > some ways, but radically different in others. You're right. For some reason milk markets seem to be completely rigged damn near everywhere. The record companies would give their eye teeth for those kind of markets and Hawkwind would probably be earning set-aside money due to te surplus of Hawkwind CD's. > Damn! Fascinating discussion. Too bad we didn't get to go over all this > on friday over pints. That would be much more fun than typing ... Yeah. It wasn't the best venue but I was pretty desperate for anyone to get it organised by that point. Next trip we'll organise it between ourselves and tell the peevers where we're going.... FoFP From starfield at SUPANET.COM Thu Apr 3 12:07:26 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 18:07:26 +0100 Subject: Re-Issues Message-ID: Here's an interesting question: if Quark were to be released tomorrow on CD, on say, the Hawks own label, would this affect the price folks were prepared to pay for the Virgin copy? From mr_bt at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Apr 3 14:25:30 2003 From: mr_bt at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (colm mcwilliams) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 20:25:30 +0100 Subject: Re-Issues Message-ID: I think it would affect the price of a second hand copy of a virgin copy of QS+C. As only the hardcore hawkwind fans would still want the original virgin cd while most fans would be happy with the re-release plus hopefully the re-release would be remasted with extra tracks aswell. What gets to me though about second hand hawkwind virgin cd's like ASAM and QS+C etc is that if you see them on ebay they cost a fortune cos they are artificially inflated by a few hardcore hawkwind fans. But if you came across the same cd in a second had store you could probably pick it up for a couple of quid. cheers colm ----- Original Message ----- From: Captain Bl at ck To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 6:07 PM Subject: Re-Issues Here's an interesting question: if Quark were to be released tomorrow on CD, on say, the Hawks own label, would this affect the price folks were prepared to pay for the Virgin copy? From youless at LVCM.COM Thu Apr 3 21:15:31 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:15:31 -0500 Subject: Re-Issues Message-ID: There'd be no demand at all for the Virgin CD, hence the price would drop to near zero...right now Space Ritual is readily available on CD. It was first put out on CD a few years ago by One Way Records, I think - you never see any copies of that being sold on E-Bay, because who'd want that when you can get a brand new CD release of Space Ritual? Having read the posts from Mike and Doug I obviously know next to nothing about economics - but the bit I do know is that the law of supply & demand works! Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 18:07:26 +0100, Captain Bl at ck wrote: >Here's an interesting question: if Quark were to be released tomorrow on CD, on say, the Hawks own label, would this affect the price folks were prepared to pay for the Virgin copy? From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Apr 3 21:58:27 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:58:27 -0500 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: PRACTICE (as in, practices of the music biz) ... On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:53:59 +0100, M Holmes wrote: >Doug Pearson writes: >> Shortly after the CD format was introduced, EMI Japan released a CD >> version of the Beatles' 'Abbey Road', that was withdrawn a couple >> years before EMI reissued the complete Beatles back catalog worldwide. >> For those couple of years, the Japanese 'Abbey Road' CD changed hands >> on the secondhand market for around $200. According to your argument, >> this high secondhand price would be reflected in a higher sale price >> for the reissued 'Abbey Road'. > >Nope, that simply shows that for other reasons, the retailers weren't >willing to either release the item in the quantities demanded, The unavailability of Beatles' CD's had NOTHING to do with retailer decisions. It had everything to do with the fact that EMI & the band were suing each other over royalties. And the fact that the Beatles *were* able to subsequently negotiate a higher CD royalty rate than any other artist had everything to do with the fact that they were the most popular rock band ever, and nothing to do with the fact that their sole out-of-print CD sold for $200 secondhand. >or to >charge the price the market would bear for the limited release. Uh, the retailers DID charge the price the market would bear for the limited release, which was around $30 (normal price for Japanese CD's at the time) while it was "in print", and $200 after it went out of print. And then, when the worlwide reissues came out, they again charged the price the market would bear (the standard $15-$20 for new CD's). >Once again: there are *OTHER* factors in pricing. Secondhand value is >simply one more effect. If secondhand value really *is* an effect, then what were the *other* factors which affected the Beatles' CD's *other than* Abbey Road in such a way the effects of the higher secondhand value were *exactly* counterbalanced? >> OK, let's say you reject that example on the grounds that only one >> CD from the Beatles' back catalog was on the secondhand market, >> period, so you can't compare it to the other CD's in their back >> catalog. Take David Bowie's back catalog, originally released on >> CD by RCA shortly before their contract with Bowie expired. As >> soon as the contract expired, the CD's were deleted, and only >> available secondhand. Again, they fetched higher-than-average CD >> prices, although more in the $25-$40 range than the $200 range. >> The most popular titles ('Ziggy Stardust', for instance) commanded >> closer to $40-$50, while less-popular titles (like 'Lodger') would >> only sell for $15-$25. According to your theory, reissues of the >> former would sell for more than reissues of the latter. Yet, when >> Rykodisc revamped the Bowie catalog a few years later, all the titles >> sold for the same price. (Now, I'm sure that Bowie *has* subsequently >> received more royalties from sales of 'Ziggy' than sales of 'Lodger', >> but that's because 'Ziggy' is a more popular album that has sold more >> copies, not because it sold for more secondhand when it was out of >> print.) > >It's also a non-perfect market. Secondhand value is *estimated* >conciously or unconciously by buyers of new product. They may not know >how rare a particular product will turn out to be, or indeed how >popular. Thus they may estimate the secondhand value as more or less >"the normal amount plus maybe a little extra because it's Bowie". It's easier to estimate secondhand value when you have a larger statistical group to work with, so it's easier to estimate the value for popular artists (such as Bowie) than for obscure ones (which I mentioned in a previous message regarding bluebooks - those tend to be more likely to be inaccurate for more obscure artists, while pretty standard/accurate for Beatles/Dylan/Stones/Elvis/etc.). The reason I gave for the difference in secondhand prices between the various Bowie albums is a sound one, and that difference in secondhand prices clearly had no effect on the subsequent Bowie reissues. >> So even though your theory is *logical*, the evidence shows that it is >> not accurate, and for very good reasons ... > >Sorry, but the evidence indicates that it's quite accurate. What evidence? Can you cite some examples, as I have above? Where it can be conclusively shown that high secondhand prices directly caused higher royalty payments further down the road? Please name a band/artist and album title, as I have. >It also >indicates that these aren't perfect information markets and that the >theory won't be predictive in every single case. I don't know of *any* cases (inside the music/CD business, of course) where your theory is correctly predictive, so just give me one example where it is! >On *average* though, >bands receive more royalties on new purchases because of a positive >secondhand value than they would if people were shot if they ever sold >secondhand and the value went zero or negative. Hmmm ... I list several real-world examples, and the best you can come up with is, "if people were shot if they ever sold secondhand"? Since we don't live in a world where people are shot for selling secondhand CD's, there's no way to verify whether that's a true conclusion or not. >> This is true only under the assumption that CD buyers are, indeed, >> taking into account the resale value of a CD when they buy one, whether >> new or used (reasoning flaw #1). > >Please show why this is a flaw. It's a flaw because consumers *don't* take resale value of a CD into account when they buy one, for the reason I give immediately below (which you seem to agree with), and other reasons. >> The reality is, consumers care no more about the >> resale value of CD's than they do the resale value of a restaurant >> meal or a movie ticket or a foreign vacation (all three of which are, >> of course, zero). > >Indeed. So you do agree that resale value is not a significant factor in consumers' purchasing decisions for CD's? (It may be a significant factor for you, although your anecdote regarding your purchase of a Hawkwind 7" on eBay would seem to indicate otherwise, but it is a zero factor for me, and Paul Mather seemed to indicate that it was not a factor for him, either.) >> >To the extent >> >that this raises the royalty of the band and to the extent that >> >competition permits retailers to reach towards this price, the royalty >> >to the band increases. >> >> This isn't the way the music business works (reasoning flaw #2). >> Royalties are not based on retail prices - a band receives the same >> royalty for copies of the same CD title, whether it has a $14 price >> tag on it or a $16 price tag. > >OK, I thought I'd made it pretty clear that the argument applies only if >the band royalties were a percantage (or vary in some other way with) >the retail price. Which does not EVER happen in the music business. So this is just another hypothetical situation. (However, I'll add that a royalty system where bands/artists received a percentage of retail for every CD sold, either new or secondhand, WOULD be much more fair to the artists than the current system. It pains me when artists are "rediscovered", and the LP's that they threw out 20 years ago because they couldn't give them away at the time are suddenly worth hundreds of dollars, but the only people to profit from it are the secondhand dealers, not the artists. And, this system would, of course, make Mike's claim of high secondhand prices leading to higher royalties completely true, since royalties would be paid as a direct percentage of secondhand sales. But, unfortunately, the system does not work that way right now, and I can certainly see the major issues that would make it very difficult to implement. It's a great Utopian-type concept, though.) >> If on a percentage royalty, bands receive a percentage of what >> the *label* (manufacturer) takes in, not what retailers take in >> (as Andy G states in his message). > >The argument still applies wherever a higher retail price means a higher >price for the label. Not otherwise. Exactly. A "higher price for the label" DOES imply "a higher retail price", but a higher retail price DOES NOT, in any way, directly imply a higher price for the label (at best, it's an *indicator*). Just because A- >B doesn't mean that B->A. So since a higher retail price does not imply a higher label price, your argument does not apply. >I'm willing to entertain the possibility that you're right, but I'd need >more evidence than a couple of examples. How about some thought >experiments: let's say that the resale value of CD's were negative, say >either you got charged ten times what you paid or you got shot. Do you >think that prices would remain the same for new CD's? In that case, we would not be living in a free market economy (since used CD prices are "fixed"), so it would be up to the price fixers to determine what the prices of new CD's were, and none of the "free market" arguments we're both making here would be valid. >> >> If anything, it seems to me >> >> that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's >> >> income, since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to >> >> spend on the band's releases. >> > >> >People only have a finite amount of funds to spend on anything. What >> >retailers and advertisers try to do is change their preferences as to >> >what they'll spend those funds on. Sure, someone might buy two >> >secondhand CD's instead of a new one, and the band might have gained >> >more from the new sale. However someone who might not pay full price >> >might buy secondhand and thus raise the price of the new sale for the >> >next guy. >> >> Huh? This doesn't sit well with basic economic theory. If someone has >> bought secondhand CD's in lieu of new ones, that's an indication of >> *decreased supply* of secondhand CD's (theoretically leading to higher >> prices for those), but there's no change to either supply or demand of >> new CD's (if anything, the demand for new CD's is decreased, which is >> supposed to lead to lower, not higher, prices). > >I didn't express myself clearly enough. Someone buying secondhand CD's >would raise the *new* price a little. Yes, I understand that's what you're saying. I'm saying that your statement is contradictary to the most basic economic rules of supply/demand. Those state that someone buying secondhand CD's would raise the *secondhand* price a little, and that if the new price was affected at all, it would decrease. I realize that there are exceptions to rules, but I don't see any evidence of this situation being an exception. >> >> Just as you describe "basic piracy", secondhand sales do not >> >> help a band economically "unless it serves to bring new buyers >> >> into the process" >> > >> >I disagree with this on the basis of the above argument. >> >> And I've pointed two significant flaws in the above argument (and cited >> examples that run counter to it) ... > >I've given the reasons that the examples are counter ones and pointing >out flaws doesn't mean much without the evidence or reasoning to show >that they are flaws. The flaws in your argument I pointed out are: 1) At the root of your argument is the assertion that consumers of CD's take resale value into account when purchasing CD's. I contend that the vast majority do not (for reasons listed above), and that the evidence (at least anecdotal examples) supports this. However, this one *is* tough to prove conclusively either way (unlike #2). 2) Your argument also relies on an assumption that royalties are paid as a percentage of the *retail* price of a CD. Since that is not the reality of the business (this is an absolute fact), your argument is severly undermined, if not contradicted outright. AND NOW FOR THE THEORY (and other stuff unrelated to the music biz) ... >Economists would claim that consumers act only in ways that they >*perceive* to be in their best interests. Yes. The tricky part is that consumers' perception of what is in their best interest can: A) change dramatically in relatively short periods of time (just follow those polls of what people perceive as the greatest problem facing their nation for a few years - the results are usually what the tv news spends the most time talking about, not the problems that really are the greatest), and B) that perception can be altered by any number of non-economic factors (the studies which show that people spend more at the supermarket when they're hungry, for instance). >As you point out, the >prevalence of credit bubbles and other manias in history indicate that >even whole societies can for a time have their perception considerably >at odds with reality. For my money (heh) the Austrian school of >economics has it taped on why this is so (essentially the theory of >money illusion under artificially lowered interest rates). Certainly I >am convinced that it's more than coincidence that these things almost >always occur during periods of falling interest rates and manipulation >of interest rates. But, at least in the US, interest rates are subject to *constant* manipulation by the Fed. But I guess we've also been subject to bubbles of one type or another the whole time, too, so it's tough to say whether there's necessarily a correlation or not, and if so, what the causes are. I'd be inclined to believe that the Fed's tinkering with interest rates is a *reaction* to the bubble, rather than a cause of the bubble. >> Yes, exactly. In this case, what's missing is an accurate explanation >> of consumer behavior, which I believe is best explained in mostly >> non-economic terms. > >I believe that there are no non-economic terms to pretty much everything. And this is the main problem I have with both Marxists and Libertarian Laissez-Faire Capitalists (a pox on both your houses!). I think it's a cop-out to ignore the non-economic factors, because the economic ones are much easier to quantify. One can quantify the economic loss of taking the time to stop to smell the flowers (based on time spent and "potential wages lost" or something like that), but not the non- economic enjoyment that is gained by smelling said flowers. If you tie the non-economic enjoyment directly to the economic loss, that would indicate that a person with a higher salary necessarily gets more satisfaction (to counter the greater economic loss) out of smelling the same flowers as a person with a lower salary BECAUSE of the difference in salaries. >> Right. The catch is that real peoples' real economic preferences are >> mostly based on non-economic reasons (buying a vaccum cleaner because >> your carpet's dirty isn't an economic reason > >Of course it is! You have a scenario where you can see two choices >(economics is about choices and only choices): keep the carpet dirty and >live with it, or spend X on getting the tools to clean the carpet and >forego the possibility of spending X on beer, CD's or saving up for a >rocketship. That's pure economics. But those are economic *consequences* of a decision made for non-economic reasons, not economic *reasons*. Making the choice between having a clean carpet vs. having a dirty carpet has nothing to do with economics; it has to do with whether or not one is a slob, since anyone who can afford to pay for housing can certainly afford *some* sort of vaccuum (even if only from the secondhand/thrift store). It's the choice between buying a 12Amp vaccuum cleaner with 30 attachments vs. buying the cheapest vaccuum in the shop that is the decision where economics comes into play. >> buying a Barry White CD because >> you think it will get your next date "in the mood" isn't an economic >> reason). > >Two choices: sex tonight but put up with Barry White or no sex but you >have the cash to buy Tim Blake's new CD. Maybe I should've said Isaac Hayes, instead of Barry White, since I enjoy his early work as much as I enjoy Tim Blake's better works (there's a great extended space-funk jam on side 4 the 'Shaft' soundtrack that even has some awfully Turner-esque flute on it). Of course, I'd never buy a *new* Isaac Hayes CD, since he's a damned $cient0l0gist. Again, there's a decision made on non-economic ("moral") grounds that has economic *consequences* for *someone else* (but not for me, I'd just pick a different CD by another artist to buy). >Pure economics again. Basically >it's the question of how much sex is worth to you. If you imagine that's >not an economic question then a quick chat with anyone who's worked in >the sex business will quickly reeducate you. That only shows that it's an economic issue to people who are consumers of the products & services offered by the sex industry. And the choice as to whether or not to be a consumer of the sex industry can't be an economic one, since you can download lots of pr0n on the net for free. >> Most people don't buy CD's because they're an investment (the >> economic reason), they buy them because they want to hear the music (the >> behavioral psychology reason). > >Choices again. Either would be an economic reason just as paying for a >restaurant ticket because they play the album there would be. Choices, yes, but not a choice based on economic reasons. If CD consumer decisions were based on solely economic reasons, then only the items in the dollar bin would sell. The problem is, most of the CD's in the dollar bin suck, and nobody wants them *no matter* how cheap they are, which is why they're there! The only time economics comes into it is when choosing a title found in the dollar bin over *the same* title found in the normal- price section. >A good point. However, while they think there's a chance that they'll >have to pay the money back then they're still evincing what economists >call "revealed preference". However it is more interesting where credit >is concerned. For example there has been some interesting discussion of >stockmarket behaviour in recent years (basically the bubble and crash). >It seems that when people are playing with "house money" (I.E money >they've gained in the bubble) they're more willing to take risks with >it. Once they lose their profit in the crash and start playing with >their own savings again, they become much more conservative. This has >been advanced as a reason for "capitulation" during crashes (basically >about halfway down the slide there's a time of huge drops and investors >leaving the market). It seems that since most people came in during the >mid-90's, we're approaching that point now (a big mystery of this crash >has been why there's been no period of capitulation yet). After that >comes investor shunning of the bubble markets and the final slide to the >bottom. I'm sure that part of the reason for this is that a lot of the mid-90's entries into the stock market are in mutual funds, 401k's, and the like. I'm just hypothesizing, but I think that many middle-class people are less likely to pull out of those than they are to sell individual shares. That would certainly mitigate any "capitulation", or at least slow it down. I'm pretty sure you're correct about the "house money" theory, although that would seem to bolster the "behavioral psychology" argument, since there's no real economic difference between "house money" and "seed money". A dollar of each is still worth exactly the same. >This also shows in the housing bubbles. During periods of falling >interest rates buyers seem to price based on monthly interest repayments >rather than consider that the actual price is all money that they'll >have to pay back along with interest. So where this is prevalent, where >rates halve, prices double. Over the last year, both interest rates *and* housing costs have come down, at least around here, so I'm not so sure about that statement. >> But attempting to use economic >> theory to make claims counter to reality does not inspire my >> confidence in academic economists (somehow, I have a feeling that >> if California's legislators had applied the same rigorous challenge >> to the economic claims made by energy companies' lobbyists a few >> years ago that I'm applying to yours, the state wouldn't have gotten >> itself into the deregulatory mess that it did). > >The problems were that these weren't anything like the free markets the >authorities wanted to pretend them to be. If you dislike free markets >and people press for deregulaton then it's a reasonable political >strategy to deregulate with rules that will force failure. Are you suggesting that California legislators *deliberately* allowed a thoroughly-failed deregulation scheme to be implemented solely to discredit the concept of deregulation?!?!? "Never attribute to malice what can be more easily explained by stupidity." (Plus, deregulation schemes have a way of discrediting themselves without any help; during the California power crisis, I asked someone who would know about these things, "in what industries has deregulation been BENEFICIAL?" His only answers: airlines and telecommunications!) (Just for the record, I'm in favor of free markets for non-essential consumer goods and luxury items - like CD's, but I am opposed to free markets for "necessities" like food, essential and/or preventive health care, energy ["baseline" usage], national security, etc.) And of course, you're correct that California energy deregulation was not a "free market"; however, it's important to note that it's the "free market" portion (sales from energy traders to energy "retailers") that was the broken part (bankrupting PG&E and enriching Skilling/Kenny-Boy/Fastow/etc.), while the "regulated" portion (energy "retail" prices) *saved* California consumers and businesses from being bankrupted as badly as PG&E. In that case, regulation was the "firewall" that prevented a major economic mess from turning into an absolute disaster (i.e. one business bankrupted instead of every business in the state bankrupted *except* that one). >Your astute politician can then step in, reregulate to save the day If only that were true ... California politicians (unlike, say, Dennis Kucinich, who made a short-term economic sacrifice to ensure the city of Cleveland's long-term economic gain by maintaining control of their public power company) don't have the guts. And it's a well known problem that putting the deregulatory genie back in the bottle is far, far, more difficult than releasing it. >and bask in the >adoration of the public while blaming the "free markets" that never >existed anyway. Add in what looks like the biggest financial fraud >conspiracy in three generations (Insul was the last of this size before >Enron in the west) and you have a pretty heady mix. Expecting any free >market model to work under these circumstances is like trying to shovel >hot coals with an ice lolly. Yep. That's my point - the original legislators didn't investigate the "deregulation" scheme thoroughly enough to see the flaws in it that would allow the fraud (stupidity at work). I believe that the energy industry lobbyists pushing the scheme knew damn well that the "free market" models they cited wouldn't apply to the legislation they were pushing. It's difficult to investigate a scheme when every real-life concrete example you cite gets shot down as irrelavent, and the economic theory behind the scheme is based entirely on hypothetical, rather than actual, situations. Plus, of course, when an "authority" tells people how much money they're going to save, they seem to be less likely to investigate the veracity of the statement, even though it would definitely be in their best interest to do so (once again, behavioral psychology trumps economics). (And wasn't Insul basically responsible for most of the energy regulatory schemes that were put in place during the great depression, in the same way that Enron is responsible for the current set of SEC & accounting industry reforms?) >You're right. For some reason milk markets seem to be completely rigged >damn near everywhere. The record companies would give their eye teeth >for those kind of markets and Hawkwind would probably be earning >set-aside money due to te surplus of Hawkwind CD's. Like I said, free markets for CD's = good; free markets for essential foodstuffs = bad (IMHO). But yes, I think the average Soviet commisar would be perfectly satisfied with the way the milk markets are run. Since, presumably, everyone else has given up reading at this point (if you've made it this far, you must be some sort of masochist), I'll make the obvious obnoxious joke that perhaps there *is* a government musician subsidy (just like the farm subsidies) that we don't know about, and they've been paying Dave for the last 5 years *not* to produce a new Hawkwind album (and he *does* live on a farm, right? hmmmmmmm) ... >Yeah. It wasn't the best venue but I was pretty desperate for anyone to >get it organised by that point. Next trip we'll organise it between >ourselves and tell the peevers where we're going.... It's healthy for me to spend time in suburban hell every once and a while (but that was plenty for quite some time!). And to hear the kind of band that most "normal" musicians in this country play in (cheesy blues-rock Eric Clapton, Bob Seeger, CCR, etc. covers) ... -Doug (sorry for the length) jasret at mindspring.com From dplaw at IC24.NET Thu Apr 3 22:31:48 2003 From: dplaw at IC24.NET (Dave Law) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:31:48 -0500 Subject: Re-issues Message-ID: colm mc williams wrote - >What gets to me though about second hand hawkwind >virgin cd's like ASAM and QS+C etc is that if you see them on ebay they >cost a fortune cos they are artificially >inflated by a few hardcore >hawkwind fans. But if you came across the same cd in a second had store >you could probably pick it up for a couple of quid. i can verify that, my mate picked up a mint copy if ASAM on cd in a local 2nd hand record shop for ?4.99 a couple of years back! From mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Apr 4 00:58:33 2003 From: mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Ian Abrahams) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:58:33 +0100 Subject: Re-Issues Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Captain Bl at ck" Here's an interesting question: if Quark were to be released tomorrow on CD, on say, the Hawks own label, would this affect the price folks were prepared to pay for the Virgin copy? Yes, inevitably. I don't see there being an intrinsic collector's premium market for CDs in the way that, say, there is an appreciating value in 60s Marvel Comics for instance. Any value over issue price for the Charisma CDs is purely based on a desire to own and listen to the music rather than a need to own that specific release. So a re-issue will satisfy demand and bring down the second hand market, though I agree with Mike's assertions over the years that the retail price of a new CD has a "sell-on" factor built into it. A better comic book analogy might be something like Sandman. First issue is static at around ?8 IIRC - what would it be worth if demand wasn't being satisfied by trade paperback reissues? But I think overall the price is demand driven and not based on intrinsic value. Ian From dr_technical at MCMAHON66.FSNET.CO.UK Fri Apr 4 02:56:09 2003 From: dr_technical at MCMAHON66.FSNET.CO.UK (Sean McMahon) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 02:56:09 -0500 Subject: HW 97 Message-ID: The passport holder '97 CD is now out of stock :-{ Is it any good? Anyone got one they don't want? From beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 4 05:15:29 2003 From: beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Allen) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:15:29 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind in Belfast Slight Return Message-ID: It turns out I was completely wrong about Hawkwind cancelling a gig in Belfast last week. It turns out that my source meant Gong, not Hawkwind, and that they had good reasons for cancelling. I shoulda spoken to the organ grinder and not the monkey... Sorry about that, Chris. From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Fri Apr 4 10:38:30 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 16:38:30 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Doug Pearson's message of Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:58:27 -0500 Message-ID: Doug Pearson writes: > What evidence? Can you cite some examples, as I have above? Where it can > be conclusively shown that high secondhand prices directly caused higher > royalty payments further down the road? Please name a band/artist and > album title, as I have. What you'd need for proof is an instance where we could compare a band with zero secondhand value witha time when there was positive secondhand value and show that new prices were higher in the second instance when nothing else at all had changed. For obvious reasons, those experimental conditions can't be satisfied. Compared to that, finding the odd couterexaple is a cinch. > >It also > >indicates that these aren't perfect information markets and that the > >theory won't be predictive in every single case. > > I don't know of *any* cases (inside the music/CD business, of course) where > your theory is correctly predictive, so just give me one example where it > is! All of it except the few counterexamples. The trick is that I can't prove it. But hey, if you want to believe that secondhand value of CD's doesn't affect prices of new cd's then that's OK by me. We agree that the theory applies generally I think? You believe that the music business is an exception for particular reasons and I'm as yet unconvinced. > > >On *average* though, > >bands receive more royalties on new purchases because of a positive > >secondhand value than they would if people were shot if they ever sold > >secondhand and the value went zero or negative. > > Hmmm ... I list several real-world examples, and the best you can come up > with is, "if people were shot if they ever sold secondhand"? Since we > don't live in a world where people are shot for selling secondhand CD's, > there's no way to verify whether that's a true conclusion or not. No, but it would tell us whether or not you believe this effect would occur *at all* in the music business. I've made my points about your counterexamples and there's also the issue that I don't claim that just because a secondhand value of a couple of quid would in general add a few pence to the new value does not necesaarily imply that a secondhand value of 200 quid for any particular item would add several quid to the new value. My point is that the absence of any secondhand value would lead to lower new prices on average but not necessarily in every specific instance. > >> This is true only under the assumption that CD buyers are, indeed, > >> taking into account the resale value of a CD when they buy one, whether > >> new or used (reasoning flaw #1). > > > >Please show why this is a flaw. > > It's a flaw because consumers *don't* take resale value of a CD into > account when they buy one, for the reason I give immediately below (which > you seem to agree with), and other reasons. > > >> The reality is, consumers care no more about the > >> resale value of CD's than they do the resale value of a restaurant > >> meal or a movie ticket or a foreign vacation (all three of which are, > >> of course, zero). > > > >Indeed. I agree that the resale value of a movie ticket is zero after the movie is shown. I do not agree with the first part (sorry for being unclear) and it's not an argument until you prove that consumers in general don't care about the resale value. I'd be quite interested in how you think that might be proven though? > So you do agree that resale value is not a significant factor in consumers' > purchasing decisions for CD's? No. > >> >To the extent > >> >that this raises the royalty of the band and to the extent that > >> >competition permits retailers to reach towards this price, the royalty > >> >to the band increases. > >> > >> This isn't the way the music business works (reasoning flaw #2). > >> Royalties are not based on retail prices - a band receives the same > >> royalty for copies of the same CD title, whether it has a $14 price > >> tag on it or a $16 price tag. > > > >OK, I thought I'd made it pretty clear that the argument applies only if > >the band royalties were a percantage (or vary in some other way with) > >the retail price. > > Which does not EVER happen in the music business. So this is just another > hypothetical situation. Well that's the part where I'm ignorant. I admit I'd blithely assumed that in general where prices were higher that led to higher royalties for bands. If this is never true and the band gets as much royalties for a CD that's sold at a quid, or even one given away, as it does for one that goes for 50 quid then the whole argument is clearly moot. Is this in fact the case? presumably then most bands try to pressure retailers to sell CD's for as close to a penny as they can get because the lower the price, the higher the sales and the more royalties they'd get? > (However, I'll add that a royalty system where bands/artists received a > percentage of retail for every CD sold, either new or secondhand, WOULD be > much more fair to the artists than the current system. That's a different argument and I won't automatically assume you're right. Why do you think this would be more fair? > It pains me when > artists are "rediscovered", and the LP's that they threw out 20 years ago > because they couldn't give them away at the time are suddenly worth > hundreds of dollars, but the only people to profit from it are the > secondhand dealers, not the artists. The secondhand dealers are the ones who took the carrying cost of holding the LP's whereas the band threw them out to save that carrying cost (effectively a negative resale value). > And, this system would, of course, > make Mike's claim of high secondhand prices leading to higher royalties > completely true, since royalties would be paid as a direct percentage of > secondhand sales. Why a percentage of secondhand sales if that's not how it's done on primary sales? I'm also leery of the ceteris paribus assumption here. If the band gained cash from this system then someone would lose it and I doubt that they wouldn't modify their behaviour due to that, and that could be in some way which cut overall royalties. > > >> >> If anything, it seems to me > >> >> that a healthy secondhand market would *detract* from a band's > >> >> income, since a band's fans have a finite amount of funds to > >> >> spend on the band's releases. > >> > > >> >People only have a finite amount of funds to spend on anything. What > >> >retailers and advertisers try to do is change their preferences as to > >> >what they'll spend those funds on. Sure, someone might buy two > >> >secondhand CD's instead of a new one, and the band might have gained > >> >more from the new sale. However someone who might not pay full price > >> >might buy secondhand and thus raise the price of the new sale for the > >> >next guy. > >> > >> Huh? This doesn't sit well with basic economic theory. If someone has > >> bought secondhand CD's in lieu of new ones, that's an indication of > >> *decreased supply* of secondhand CD's (theoretically leading to higher > >> prices for those), but there's no change to either supply or demand of > >> new CD's (if anything, the demand for new CD's is decreased, which is > >> supposed to lead to lower, not higher, prices). > > > >I didn't express myself clearly enough. Someone buying secondhand CD's > >would raise the *new* price a little. > > Yes, I understand that's what you're saying. I'm saying that your > statement is contradictary to the most basic economic rules of > supply/demand. Those state that someone buying secondhand CD's would raise > the *secondhand* price a little, and that if the new price was affected at > all, it would decrease. This is the very point on which we disagree. > AND NOW FOR THE THEORY (and other stuff unrelated to the music biz) ... > > >Economists would claim that consumers act only in ways that they > >*perceive* to be in their best interests. > > Yes. The tricky part is that consumers' perception of what is in their > best interest can: A) change dramatically in relatively short periods of > time (just follow those polls of what people perceive as the greatest > problem facing their nation for a few years - the results are usually what > the tv news spends the most time talking about, not the problems that > really are the greatest), and B) that perception can be altered by any > number of non-economic factors (the studies which show that people spend > more at the supermarket when they're hungry, for instance). We agree except in that I see being hungry as an economic factor. > >As you point out, the > >prevalence of credit bubbles and other manias in history indicate that > >even whole societies can for a time have their perception considerably > >at odds with reality. For my money (heh) the Austrian school of > >economics has it taped on why this is so (essentially the theory of > >money illusion under artificially lowered interest rates). Certainly I > >am convinced that it's more than coincidence that these things almost > >always occur during periods of falling interest rates and manipulation > >of interest rates. > > But, at least in the US, interest rates are subject to *constant* > manipulation by the Fed. Indeed, but this is the first disinflationary period since the 1930's isn't it? So now both factors are present and bingo, we get a stocks bubble a credit bubble and now after asset rotation out of stocks, a housing bubble. Coincidence? > But I guess we've also been subject to bubbles of > one type or another the whole time, too so it's tough to say whether > there's necessarily a correlation or not, and if so, what the causes are. > I'd be inclined to believe that the Fed's tinkering with interest rates is > a *reaction* to the bubble, rather than a cause of the bubble. That too. The Fed certainly has decided that it's better to try to keep the bubble going that take the medicine that deflation will bring. However, Austrian theory says that the longer you run a bubble and the more people and debt that it involved, the worse the aftermath. I'd contend that Greenspan has averted a recession at the cost of a depression. > >> Yes, exactly. In this case, what's missing is an accurate explanation > >> of consumer behavior, which I believe is best explained in mostly > >> non-economic terms. > > > >I believe that there are no non-economic terms to pretty much everything. > > And this is the main problem I have with both Marxists and Libertarian > Laissez-Faire Capitalists (a pox on both your houses!). Well, mold anyway. > I think it's a cop-out to ignore the non-economic factors, because the > economic ones are much easier to quantify. One can quantify the economic > loss of taking the time to stop to smell the flowers (based on time spent > and "potential wages lost" or something like that), but not the non- > economic enjoyment that is gained by smelling said flowers. I just doubt this. Simply ratchet up an offer of money not to smell the floers unil someone takes it and you have a measure of what smelling the flowers is worth to them. > If you tie the > non-economic enjoyment directly to the economic loss, that would indicate > that a person with a higher salary necessarily gets more satisfaction (to > counter the greater economic loss) out of smelling the same flowers as a > person with a lower salary BECAUSE of the difference in salaries. No. If I pay more for beer than you do it doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy it more than you do, it just means that enjoying beer is worth more to me than enjoying beer is worth to you. There might unltimately be a measure of subjective enjoyment (some brain activity reading perhaps) but that's not quite the same thing. Perhaps this is what you meant and we're actually in agreement here? > >> Right. The catch is that real peoples' real economic preferences are > >> mostly based on non-economic reasons (buying a vaccum cleaner because > >> your carpet's dirty isn't an economic reason > > > >Of course it is! You have a scenario where you can see two choices > >(economics is about choices and only choices): keep the carpet dirty and > >live with it, or spend X on getting the tools to clean the carpet and > >forego the possibility of spending X on beer, CD's or saving up for a > >rocketship. That's pure economics. > > But those are economic *consequences* of a decision made for non-economic > reasons, not economic *reasons*. Making the choice between having a clean > carpet vs. having a dirty carpet has nothing to do with economics Economics is about choices not money. Money is merely one way in which we measure the value to people of different choices. In that this is about a choice, it's economics. Economics is about human behaviour when confronted with options, it's not necessarily about money or finance. > Choices, yes, but not a choice based on economic reasons. If CD consumer > decisions were based on solely economic reasons, then only the items in the > dollar bin would sell. The problem is, most of the CD's in the dollar bin > suck, and nobody wants them *no matter* how cheap they are, which is why > they're there! The only time economics comes into it is when choosing a > title found in the dollar bin over *the same* title found in the normal- > price section. I see we disagree about even what economics is. If you're saying that some choices are made without recourse to money then I agree 9though I don't necessarily agree that it would be impossible to determine monetary values to the individual of the various choices). I do not agree that choices made irrespective of money are not economics. > >A good point. However, while they think there's a chance that they'll > >have to pay the money back then they're still evincing what economists > >call "revealed preference". However it is more interesting where credit > >is concerned. For example there has been some interesting discussion of > >stockmarket behaviour in recent years (basically the bubble and crash). > >It seems that when people are playing with "house money" (I.E money > >they've gained in the bubble) they're more willing to take risks with > >it. Once they lose their profit in the crash and start playing with > >their own savings again, they become much more conservative. This has > >been advanced as a reason for "capitulation" during crashes (basically > >about halfway down the slide there's a time of huge drops and investors > >leaving the market). It seems that since most people came in during the > >mid-90's, we're approaching that point now (a big mystery of this crash > >has been why there's been no period of capitulation yet). After that > >comes investor shunning of the bubble markets and the final slide to the > >bottom. > > I'm sure that part of the reason for this is that a lot of the mid-90's > entries into the stock market are in mutual funds, 401k's, and the like. Agreed. > I'm just hypothesizing, but I think that many middle-class people are less > likely to pull out of those than they are to sell individual shares. That > would certainly mitigate any "capitulation", or at least slow it down. Perhaps, though at some point a manager of a porrly performing 401K presumably has to sell if only to stem further losses. The evidence is indeed that they'll be less skittish than individuals. In this case that often means they lost a lot more on bahalf of their clients and they can now only claim to be placed for the recovery. > I'm > pretty sure you're correct about the "house money" theory, although that > would seem to bolster the "behavioral psychology" argument, since there's > no real economic difference between "house money" and "seed money". A > dollar of each is still worth exactly the same. I guess money borrowed isn't perceived by many as the same as money earned. > >This also shows in the housing bubbles. During periods of falling > >interest rates buyers seem to price based on monthly interest repayments > >rather than consider that the actual price is all money that they'll > >have to pay back along with interest. So where this is prevalent, where > >rates halve, prices double. > > Over the last year, both interest rates *and* housing costs have come down, > at least around here, so I'm not so sure about that statement. Rents have fallen in SF though prices have risen. This kind of "divergence" is actually very common in bubbles, particularly at the peak phase. There was similar divergence between the Nasdaq and Dow indices just before the bust started. > >The problems were that these weren't anything like the free markets the > >authorities wanted to pretend them to be. If you dislike free markets > >and people press for deregulaton then it's a reasonable political > >strategy to deregulate with rules that will force failure. > > Are you suggesting that California legislators *deliberately* allowed a > thoroughly-failed deregulation scheme to be implemented solely to discredit > the concept of deregulation?!?!? I'm suggesting that it be considered a possibility that there were politicians who faced with a deregulation they didn't want would do their best to ensure that it'd be a deregulation which failed. > "Never attribute to malice what can be > more easily explained by stupidity." Perhaps, but given the details of electricity deregulation, these people were certainly geniuses at being stupid. > (Plus, deregulation schemes have a > way of discrediting themselves without any help; during the California > power crisis, I asked someone who would know about these things, "in what > industries has deregulation been BENEFICIAL?" His only answers: airlines > and telecommunications!) I'm against deregulation. I'm in favour of free markets. > (Just for the record, I'm in favor of free markets for non-essential > consumer goods and luxury items - like CD's, but I am opposed to free > markets for "necessities" like food, essential and/or preventive health > care, energy ["baseline" usage], national security, etc.) Given socialism's record of providing things, it'd actually be much better to have the non-essential things passed over to the various mini-soviets. Unless e actually prefer people to starve or die in a health queue. I'm in favour of the same system that guarantees me beer guaranteeing me food and water too. > And of course, > you're correct that California energy deregulation was not a "free market"; > however, it's important to note that it's the "free market" portion (sales > from energy traders to energy "retailers") that was the broken part > (bankrupting PG&E and enriching Skilling/Kenny-Boy/Fastow/etc.) PG&E went bankrupt because deregulation meant that they bought electricity prices at the marginal cost at 24 hour spot prices (that is they were barred from buying wholesale and from arranging contracts to supply for say a whole winter) and there were price caps on what they could sell on to customers. A more fucked up and less free market system would be hard to devise without a great deal of thought and the failure mode would be obvious to a bright six year old if explained in terms of sweets. > while > the "regulated" portion (energy "retail" prices) *saved* California > consumers and businesses from being bankrupted as badly as PG&E. It also saved them from having electricity some of the time. If you force a retailer to sell you something at a much lower price than he buys it for then he has a strong interest created in creating some downtime where he can haemorage money more slowly. I also note that the geniuses who "saved" you then set long term contracts for bulk electricity (the politicians wwere exempt from the laws they made apparently) at a fixed price from PG&E and others which then turned out to be much higher than PG&E could then buy electricity for and you guys got screwed again. Of course they're now trying to renege on this. > In that > case, regulation was the "firewall" that prevented a major economic mess > from turning into an absolute disaster (i.e. one business bankrupted > instead of every business in the state bankrupted *except* that one). Basically you stole cash from the pensioners who had shares in PG&E. Woops, that turns out to be the Californian state. I'll bet the taxpayers hurt for that too. What it was is a monumental cockup. What it wasn't is an example of anything like a free market any more than forcing AndyG to buy CD's individually at whatever price the owner asked (no bulk deals and now forward deals) and then resell them at a lower and fixed price whatever they cost him. > >Your astute politician can then step in, reregulate to save the day > > If only that were true ... California politicians (unlike, say, Dennis > Kucinich, who made a short-term economic sacrifice to ensure the city of > Cleveland's long-term economic gain by maintaining control of their public > power company) don't have the guts. And it's a well known problem that > putting the deregulatory genie back in the bottle is far, far, more > difficult than releasing it. Maybe once they've tried absolutely everything else, they'll try free markets and you'll get electricity at around the price it costs to make it. > Yep. That's my point - the original legislators didn't investigate > the "deregulation" scheme thoroughly enough to see the flaws in it that > would allow the fraud (stupidity at work). Exercise for the reader: you're a company selling units of X. You get to ask all sellers of X what they'll sell it to you for. You must the pay for all units what you'd pay for the most expensive unit you had to buy from the bidding. You have to sell on all units at a fixed price irrespective of what you paid. Spot the flaw. Time allowed: 1.5 seconds. Excercise 2: You're selling to these poor schmucks and know that if they bid for 100 units then they'll have to pay for the first 99 units what they pay for the 100th. Do you A) Offer 100 units at price Y or B) Offer 99 units at price Y and one unit at price 3 times Y? Time allowed: 0.5 seconds. Jeese Doug, we're not talking Evil Geniuses here. > I believe that the energy > industry lobbyists pushing the scheme knew damn well that the "free market" > models they cited wouldn't apply to the legislation they were pushing. > It's difficult to investigate a scheme when every real-life concrete > example you cite gets shot down as irrelavent, and the economic theory > behind the scheme is based entirely on hypothetical, rather than actual, > situations. Plus, of course, when an "authority" tells people how much > money they're going to save, they seem to be less likely to investigate the > veracity of the statement, even though it would definitely be in their best > interest to do so (once again, behavioral psychology trumps economics). > (And wasn't Insul basically responsible for most of the energy regulatory > schemes that were put in place during the great depression, in the same way > that Enron is responsible for the current set of SEC & accounting industry > reforms?) Coindidence do you suppose? > > >You're right. For some reason milk markets seem to be completely rigged > >damn near everywhere. The record companies would give their eye teeth > >for those kind of markets and Hawkwind would probably be earning > >set-aside money due to te surplus of Hawkwind CD's. > > Like I said, free markets for CD's = good; free markets for essential > foodstuffs = bad (IMHO). Hardly. In our rigged milk markets for example, we pay farmers not to have cows in order to cut down on the excess milk. We pay a fixed price to farmers above the market rate and so we still get more milk than we need. We then have to pay to refrigerate and store this milk in vast milk lakes. Eventually we also have to pay to destroy it when there's no room for more surplus milk. This also applies to butter, meat, etc and is why european food prices are around triple US food prices even before the cost of taxation for all the above is taken into account. So for "essential" foodstuffs we pay triple the free market rate and then some so that regulation can "save" us. If this were done for CD's then Hawkwind could make a living not making music as part of set-aside. AndyG could make money gaining subsidies to sell various CD's at triple the usual cost and I could make money providing storage for the CD's which didn't sell because of the high prices and for destroying them when I ran out of room Yeah, I'm sure glad they regulate essential services. I can't wait for it to happen with CD's. FoFP From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Fri Apr 4 12:48:00 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:48:00 +0100 Subject: OFF: Economics and happiness Message-ID: For those not already asleep from the economics of CD's thread: http://tinyurl.com/8tx1 From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Fri Apr 4 12:57:38 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:57:38 +0100 Subject: OFF: Economics of CD buying Message-ID: I'm afraid I must retract something I've already agreed with Doug. I said that if there were no percentage royalty (or other correlation of royalty payments) of primary sale price accruing to a band (assumption A) then my argument that a positive resale price would mean a higher primary price would no apply. Having considered this further I've decided I must retract. My reasoning is as follows: I contend that consumers buy based on a kind of notional rent price which is the difference between the retail price and the price they calculate (albeit unconciously) they might receive on resale secondhand. Let's call the retail price X and the resale price Y. I'm claiming that the consumer buys based on price (X-Y) more than on price Y. If the price X-Y is lower, then by standard economics of supply and demand, the demand goes up. X-Y is lower than X whenever Y is positive (when there's any resale value at all in other words) and therefore demand for new sales will be higher when there's a positive resale value. To the extent that this demand can be met, royalties to a band will increase due to greater primary sales when there is a positive resale value. Sorry Doug, we nearly had agreement there... FoFP BTW: since we were talking about counterexamples. I'd contend that if Doug were correct and bands received a fixed royalty whatever the price of a new CD, it would be in the interest of bands to influence the price down as low as possible so as to increase demand and therefore maximise their royalties. if possible bands would attempt to have their work given away (zero price is as low as we can go without actually paying consumers to take product). In that I haven't heard of any bands attempting to do this, I offer thise as a counterexample to Doug's rebuttal. From hw at CY-B.ORG Fri Apr 4 18:32:54 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:32:54 -0500 Subject: HW: Hawkfest 2003 + tour updates Message-ID: ++ + + Star-Warriors + + + + + HAWKFEST 2003 Tickets are onsale NOW from Mission Control For HAWKWIND PASSPORT HOLDERS ONLY*...... Please read the full booking details before clicking on the link to the secure payment page. Credit/Debit cards plus Paypal are accepted. FULL DETAILS/CREDIT CARD LINK: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/gigs/NwHf/tx.htm *Hawkwind Passports are available at; http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/pa_.htm www.hawkwind.com ------------------------------------------------------------ TOUR UPDATE: Note that we have added Ozric Tentacles to the Nottingham gig on 19th May, Doctor & The Medics to Astoria London on 25th May and Daevid Allen's University of Errors on 26th May at Bristol HAWKWIND SPRING 2003 MINI-TOUR: --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 18th 2003 CAMBRIDGE - The Junction Ticket Sales: 0870 771 2000 (24 hours) Online Sales: www.wayahead.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 19th 2003 NOTTINGHAM - Rock City Support: Ozric Tentacles Ticket Sales: 0115 9588484 (24 hours) Online Sales: www.wayahead.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 25th 2003 LONDON - Astoria Theatre Support: Doctor & The Medics Phone: UK+44 (0)20 7316 4709 (Monday - Saturday 10.00 - 18.00 hrs) Online Sales: www.meanfiddler.com / www.ticketmaster.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 26th 2003 BRISTOL - Academy (This date was postponed from December 2002) Ticket Sales: 0870 771 2000 (24 hours) Support: Daevid Allen's University of Errors Online Sales: www.wayahead.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 27th 2003 BIRMINGHAM - Academy (This date was postponed from December 2002) Ticket Sales: 0870 771 2000 (24 hours) Online Sales: www.wayahead.com ++ + + MESSAGE ENDS From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Apr 4 23:03:52 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 23:03:52 -0500 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:42:04 -0500, Doug Pearson wrote: >it's just that I believe that reasoning is better >understood by the science of behavioral psychology If I may- I think you mean cognitive psychology. Traditional hardcore Skinnerian behaviourists would not recognise any meaning in a word like "reasoning". Viva the cognitive revolution! Nick From t.byrne at NTLWORLD.COM Sat Apr 5 06:02:21 2003 From: t.byrne at NTLWORLD.COM (Tom Byrne) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:02:21 +0100 Subject: My Page and New Album / Starfarer's Page / Quark 1977 Message-ID: Hello all Here is a spamette. I have released my second album, "The Eye of the Cyclone", and MP3 or Realplayer extracts from it and the first "The Last Druids" are available for download at http://tombyrne.iuma.com . If you view the page or download or stream I go up in iuma's statistics - currently I'm pick of the pops at 450 - so your contribution to visitors would be much appreciated! "The Eye" is a departure from the first album - more space rock influenced, but still a concept album. Heavier, but as Mr Youles (Starfarer) has pointed out to me, still with the occasional pastoral vibe. Anyway, see what you think. Speaking of Starfarer, at his request I've contributed an image of my autographed Quark programme, which can be seen at http://www.starfarer.net/photos32.html . This was a memorable concert at the Palace Theatre, Manchester in June 1977. The lineup included Bob Calvert, Dave Brock, Simon House, Adrian Shaw and Simon King My fond memories include: the music, which of course was from the astonishing Quark period; Atomhenge - one of the most inventive light shows I'd seen hithero or since; Mr Calvert bellowing language which would have amazed and delighted an old bos'un at megawatts from the stage at an over-enthusiastic bouncer who had assaulted an over-enthusiastic fan; Mr Calvert then trying to club said bouncer with the mike stand; meeting the band at the stage door, asking Mr Calvert (rather rashly in hindsight) why he had used ideas from Herman Hesse (Steppenwolf), Roger Zelazny (Jack of Shadows, Damnation Alley), J G Ballard (High Rise) and getting the impressive answer that he was comfortable with that because Shakespeare had done the same kind of thing; telling Dave Brock that Assault and Battery / Golden Void was one of the best things they'd ever done (I'm still of this opinion); chatting to Simon House; chatting to Michael Butterworth about the Time of the Hawklords series, and discussing Norman Spinrad's The Iron Dream with those of the band who'd read it. I must say in the last couple of years it's been great to see the band as vibrant as it ever was and I thoroughly recommend the Hawkfest to those who can attend. Best regards Tom Byrne From jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM Sat Apr 5 09:40:59 2003 From: jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM (Jerry Kranitz) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:40:59 -0500 Subject: OFF: Aural Innovations Radio: New Space Rock show + Hi-Note Music label special Message-ID: http://Aural-Innovations.com Announcements (April 5, 2003): We've just uploaded two new shows from Aural Innovations Radio. One is a new Space Rock show (show #72) and the other is a Hi-Note Music label special (show #71). The April issue of Aural Innovation is on schedule for publication later this month. As usual we've got lots of interesting interviews, articles, and reviews lined up. LOTS of news items this week so be sure and check them out below the playlists. Aural Innovations Space Rock Radio (show #72) Mantric Muse - "Cinope" (from Copenhagen Space Rock Festival 2002) The Rabbit's Hat - "Ignorance Is Bliss" (from The Magician) La Betoniera - "Brucia Amore" (from La Sfera Bianca) Effetto Doppler - "Stato Di Grazia" (from Indifferenticieli) The Linus Pauling Quartet - "Vegetable Man" (from Various Artists: The Vegetable Man Project) Nirnaeth Space Lab - "Big Bang" (from Not Of This Earth: Sci-Fi Movies Tribute) Peter Frohmader - "No Panic V.2" (from Anubis Dance) Floorian - "Alt.11" (from What The Buzzing?) Nebula - "Full Throttle" (from Dos Eps) Automatic Music - "Seduction Of The Inner Eye Awakening" (from Szumagumma) Steve Lawson - "No More Us And Them" (from Not Dancing For Chicken) Aural Innovations Radio: Hi-Note Music Label Special (show #71) Hi-Note is a British label that focuses on Progressive Rock, but also reissues obscure albums from the 1970's. They have a number of sub-labels including Background, Aftermath, English Garden, and Headline. Visit their web site at http://www.hinotemusic.com. Clear Blue Sky - "Timelords Speak" (from Mirror Of The Stars) The Ashqelon Quilt - "The Coin" (from The Event) The Rabbit's Hat - "Say Yes" (from BBC & Related Acoustic Sessions) Terri~B - "Girl Power" (from Wrap Me In Your Skin) The Morrigan - "In The End" (from Hidden Agenda) Tantalus - "Route Thirty Six Part Two" (from Lumen Et Caligo I) Paul Rose - "Eastern View" (from Late Show) Dogstar Poets - "Magic Mile" (from Off-Planet) The Shape Of The Rain - "Hello 503" (from Unreleased Recordings 1966-1973) Barra - "Gnosis" (from Eternal Magus) So head on over to http://Aural-Innovations.com and click on the Radio link to listen. NEW IN STOCK to the Aural Innovations mail order catalog. Copenhagen Space Rock Festival Compilation 2002: Compilation featuring live and unreleased tracks by The Spacious Mind, Dark Sun (w/Nik Turner), Darxtar, Gas Giant, Mantric Muse, and Pseudo Sun (w/Nik Turner). The Vegetable Man Project - Compilation featuring 20 bands doing covers of Syd Barrett's song "Vegetable Man". There are LOTS of variations on the song, making this quite an interesting compilation. Participating artists include The Linus Pauling Quartet, Tom Carter, Gastel Etzwane, Pulp_Ito, Effetto Doppler, Yulan, Kable, Mandragora, Drona Parva, Delavega, Donna Vegetale, Nick Bensen, Krut 182, Castemore, Menazone, Sixtynine and the Continuous People, Max, Gnu, Potage, and Annavoid. For more information visit http://aural-innovations.com/mailord/mailord.html I received the following email from a gentleman names Steve Rowlstone who recently contacted me regarding a ROBERT CALVERT film project he is working on. I've included Steve's email at the end in case you care to contact him. Here it is: What we are doing is hoping to produce a documentary and a tribute to Robert Calvert. We are interviewing as many people as we can who worked with Robert i.e. Nik Turner, Adrian Shaw, Steve Pond, Simon House and others, as well as Brian Tawn, Jill Calvert, Pete Pavli, Michael Moorcock, Tommy Grenas, Steve Sneyd, Fred Reeves, Roger Neville-Neil. We are hoping that we will be able to produce a documentary that covers all aspects of Robert's output - music, plays, poetry and books - a lot of which people don't know much about, as well as trying to provide more of an understanding of the person rather than the persona. All of the profits raised from the project have been offered to Jill Calvert, who wants them donated to a charity that both she and Robert were in favour of - one of the animal campaign groups I think - I've got it written down somewhere. We are also trying to build up a photo-gallery, so obviously we are looking for any photo's of Robert - either on stage or more personal ones if possible, as well as audio and video footage of Robert with Hawkwind and solo. We are building up a large collection of live material and on the tribute part of the project we are hoping to put out as much of a concert as possible - just Calvert songs for obvious legal reasons. Although I've not yet managed to get in touch with Dave Brock, hopefully soon and maybe we'll be given permission - you never know! As well as the docu-tribute, there will be a booklet with contributions from Steve Sneyd, Jill Calvert, Steve Pond, Rod Goodway, Roger N-N, Brian Tawn - either something written about Robert or recollections and stories that didn't make there way into the film. I'm hoping to collect lots of peoples favourite memories and stories - just little snippets so that people who never met Robert, or ever saw him on stage can begin to see why he is still such a respected and popular man - a genius who has affected many lives either directly or indirectly through his music and words. Steve Rowlstone (sr51 at cant.ac.uk) NO PIGEONHOLES is a radio show hosted by Don Campau featuring music by home produced and small studio artists from around the world in many styles. It is broadcast on KKUP 91.5 FM to the San Francisco and Monterey Bay Areas twice a month, the 2nd and the 4th Sundays from 3-5 PM. www.kkup.com European broadcast and additional internet archiving by Radio Marabu, a shortwave collective in Germany. www.RadioMarabu.de Past playlists are available at: http://lonelywhistle.tripod.com/playlists CDs and cassettes of past shows are also available, contact me for details: campaudj at jps.net Feel free to send your music for airplay. I am especially interested in airing home recordings. Prorgression Magazine is interested in reviewing Space Rock & Psychedelic bands. Progression is published quarterly and is a huge glossy mag with good distribution. For more information visit their web site www.progressionmagazine.com or email publisher John Collinge at progzine at aol.com. A GATHERING OF THE TRIBES Pooterland were involved in helping to promote what was to be a legendary Psychedelic/Multi-media Experience in London. At the time we were contracturally bound not to issue any details regarding the venue and names of the artists but events have taken a twist so here's the deal: The event was planned to take place at the famous Roundhouse in Chalk Farm, London on Sunday 25th May 2003 and was billed as Implosion At The Roundhouse 2003 - A Gathering of The Tribes. In light of the war in Iraq the original sponsors of a series of events (including this one) have cancelled leaving this wonderful project out on a limb. The Implosion promoters want to do this now on their own but need to gauge popularity to see how viable this would be to do and if it looks good the event COULD WELL TAKE PLACE!! What you all need to so is send an email to the following address and show your support: ig at btconnect.com It is VITALLY IMPORTANT that the subject line of the email is ROUNDHOUSE This will be a 8+ hour event and tickets are likely to be around ?20-25 each. The following artists are booked to appear (this line up is AMAZING): Blue Cheer, Crazy World of Arthur Brown, The Deviants, Dantalions Chariot, Kevin Ayers, Man, Michael Horowitz, The Purple Gang, Terry Reid, Linda Lewis and guests will all be appearing. There aren't many of us left but those that are, will be there en masse and hopefully younger people who "connect" will be there too. On the decks for this monumentous occasion is the legendary Jeff Dexter (The Milky Bar Kid) of UFO, Middle Earth and the original Implosion at The Roundhouse fame. It will be an excursion into the past but with todays technology at our disposal. (web cast and such). LARRY MAROTTA ON THE ROAD THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 9 p.m. (doors at 8) Larry Marotta (acoustic guitar), Dave Stone (reeds), Danny McClane (percussion), and Mark Sarich (cello) Each of us will do a short solo set, then perform as a quartet later in the evening. Lemp Avenue Arts Center, 3301 Lemp Ave, St. Louis MO 63118. 314.771.1096. http://www.geocities.com/lnac_temp/ FRIDAY, APRIL 11, Larry Marotta (acoustic guitar) and Jack Wright (reeds)/Bob Marsh (cello), 7 pm, Jazz Central Station, Hilton Springfield, 700 E. Adams, $5 http://elevatorshoe.com/INMS/ SATURDAY, April 12, 9 pm Larry Marotta (acoustic guitar), Kyle Bruckmann (oboe), Ernst Karel (trumpet/electronics), I'll do a short solo set, followed by a trio set. Candlestick Maker, 4432 N. Kedzie Ave., Chicago, Just north of Montrose. Kedzie stop on the Brown Line, 3 blks. south. The sign above the door reads "PERFECT rubber stamps"} http://www.candlestickmaker.org, 773-463-0158 From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 5 11:07:33 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:07:33 +0100 Subject: Arthur Brown In-Reply-To: <200212052036.PAA11133@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Doug Pearson wrote: > On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:33:54 +0800, William Duffy wrote: > >And he made a guest appearance on Robert Calvert, Captain Lockhead & The > >Starfighters, doing vocals on The Gremlin. > > As an additional HW connection, Ade Shaw was briefly in his backing band > (pre-Magic Muscle, I believe for Ade, and between the Crazy World and > Kingdown Come for Arthur ... or possibly an early Kingdom Come lineup), > although I don't think anything was recorded (correct me if I'm wrong, > please!). Somewhere there's a really complex Ade Shaw interview which explains this. If I noted it down correctly, he started with Arthur Brown after The Crazy World broke up and they all decamped, along with the remnants of the Misunderstood including Tony Hill (see below), to Puddleton. The first band Arthur formed with Adrian there was thus called The Puddleton Express, and became through various changes The Crazy World of Arthur Brown (though not with any of the previous Crazy World people bar Arthur, and *possibly* Drachen Theaker I forget), and Rustic Hinge and the Provincial Swimmers [this is my favourite band name ever]. Now, to answer your question, there *are* recordings from this period, or at least in 1988 Reckless put out an LP called _Rustic Hinge_, which as far as I can tell sank without trace, but it's from then. What I don't know is what the stuff is like, or whether Adrian Shaw is actually on it, because in the ferment of band creation that seems to have been going on down there, he didn't stay with Arthur Brown long. Rod Goodway was something to do with that first Rustic Hinge line-up and as a result Magic Muscle was formed out of this gathering. So was High Tide, because also down there was Simon House who found himself lying on a grassy bank with Tony Hill being gloomy, and said something along the lines of "I never wanted to be a bass-player anyway, I used to play the violin" and Tony said, "Well, why don't you then" and thus High Tide was formed. I say see below because hey, I went to see Tony Hill on Thursday. He was playing at the Standard with his current backing band as Tony Hill's Fiction. We hadn't realised it was only a support slot, but he gave us our money's worth. First two numbers of _Inexactness_, something new called `Poland', another new one whose name I didn't get and something I should know off the Fiction's first EP, and they finished with another number off _Inexactness_ and another number off the EP. No High Tide stuff--I asked him afterwards whilst trying to buy CDs they didn't have, and he said that trying to play that stuff without the passion that created it would just kill it, and "I'm not going to feel like that again, anyway, that's for sure". He seemed to have fun. Is it necessary to point out he was very very good? The bass-player is also agile and alert and doesn't stay still much. The drummer, well, never mind. Though if you took away half his kit he might be forced into playing more interestingly. Tony Hill's guitar sound is very difficult to describe; a peculiar mix of fuzz and wah that sounds like liquid candyfloss. He took a little while to get into it but by the break of `Don't Want To Talk About It' he was well away and stayed there; it was cruel to make them stop. He got a decent hand from the audience, and had two friends among it, but Kirsten and I were the only people bar them who seemed to know who he actually was. Very sad. The best of it is that he didn't care; he had some kind of response from the small crowd, and he was playing for him. Always good to see someone whom music helps like that. I remember an Al Bouchard interview where he said he did it because it eased his pain; you could see the anaesthetic taking hold on Mr Hill. I think Tony Hill is rather good. Also, the new stuff was no worse and maybe even better than the _Inexactness_ stuff, more punch for the three-piece arrangement maybe; and two numbers were _upbeat_. It was a bit of a shock. But fundamentally, why is this man playing second support to a band named Avid Bowie on a Thursday night? He can play anyone I've seen bar Buck Dharma off a stage and writes songs to die for (or to). There's no justice at all. > During much of the 1980s, Arthur was living in Texas (hmmmm ... like > Michael Moorcock does), and members of Austin spacerock band ST37 did some > work with him. Anyway, back on topic: is that right, Doug? Which recordings are they on? Cause you know, that would be *interesting*... Yours, Jon ObCD: Atomic Rooster - _The Devil Hits Back_ (cheap compilation which turns out to be mostly one 1980 live album--as a result I still can't tell whether they were any good... ) -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From js3619 at ACMENET.NET Sun Apr 6 06:18:28 2003 From: js3619 at ACMENET.NET (Jason Scruton) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:18:28 -0400 Subject: BOC: on TV in two days! Message-ID: April 2, 2003 VH-1 CLASSIC will be showing a half-hour of BOC videos and interview on their "Headline Act" show. The show will include "classic videos from the group and an exclusive new interview with band members Buck Dharma and Eric Bloom, who stopped by the VH1 Classic studio to discuss their new CD/DVD "A Long Day's Night." The show premieres Monday, April 7 at 7pm. From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Sun Apr 6 05:34:48 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:34:48 +0200 Subject: HW 97 Message-ID: are you kiddin' or what? it's very good ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean McMahon" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: HW 97 > The passport holder '97 CD is now out of stock :-{ > Is it any good? Anyone got one they don't want? > > From charlie.grant at LINEONE.NET Sun Apr 6 07:09:15 2003 From: charlie.grant at LINEONE.NET (Charlie Grant) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:09:15 +0100 Subject: BOC: A Homage? Message-ID: I don't know if anyone's commented already, but has anyone seen the cover to the new Everclear album (UK anyway)? Black and white sky in almost geometric circular pattern, skyscrapers in the foreground. All a bit T&M... I haven't heard it tho' .......Charles the Grinning Boy PS - no London date for the Brain Surgeons?? From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sun Apr 6 10:50:50 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:50:50 +0100 Subject: HW/OFF: Arthur Brown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Gordon Taylor wrote: > Further to Arthur Brown's KIngdom Come, I saw this band on the tour they > did around the Journey album. As previously noted they used an early drum > machine called a Bentley Drum Machine - also variously called an Ace Bentley > Rhythm Generator and a Bentley Rhythm Ace. The "Bentley Rhythm Ace" name > was revived by a left field dance combo from Birmingham (UK not Alabama) in > the 1990s. I don't know why they decided to use it instead of a real > drummer, in the early 1970s it must have been somewhat optimistic to use such > an untried piece of eqipment on a concert tour, but I recall that when the > Sisters of Mercy introduced their drum machine (known as Dr. Avalanche) they > claimed that not only did it keep better time than a real drummer but it also > drank a lot less. There's some very similar things said about the drum machine Kingdom Come used on Arthur Brown's web-pages (which are, in case people don't know this, at ). The relevant bit is at and goes: `"I've had four good drummers in Kingdom Come," Brown explains. "And I've worked with many more good drummers in the bands I've had since I started. I know, in other words, what a good drummer is--and I also know most drummers can't handle what our music needs. "Sometimes we might want them to work very, very simply and the next moment we ll need them to do something very complex. None of the drummers I've worked with have been able to take it." `Hence Bentley--in actual fact a Bentley Rhythm Ace drum machine which Brown plays on stage. The band bought it when Chris Burrows, the last drummer, left. `"We realised it has a place of its own in rock music," Brown says. "There's one thing, you see, that limits all rock bands, and that is the fact that a rock band is built around a drum kit. "The drum kit is limited by what the hands and feet of the drummer can do, and also by the problem of amplifying the kit to the electronic level oF the band. `"The Rhythm Ace, in that sense, is equivalent to 200 ordinary drum kits. It frees the whole scope of rhythm and lets you get into patterns of rhythm that you just can t get with a drum kit. On mine, for example, you can have a drum kit and a Latin-American section at the same time--and there is no way you could do that otherwise." `The Rhythm Ace itself is a four-stage rhythm generator. The first stage contains the "operations system" which generates, through a system of oscillators, any conceivable permutation of rhythmic pulses. `The second stage is a rhythm selection unit which selects pulses from the operations system to provide rhythmic patterns ranging from straight rock to jazz and Latin-American tempos over a wide range of possible variations. `The third stage provides the "voices" in much the same way as the voice tabs of an electronic organ--except that the voices of the drum machine are drum voices. The final stage is a pre-amplifier with an output to an external power-amp system. `"The Rhythm Ace gives you any rhythm that a drummer can play," Brown explains, "as well as rhythmic combinations that can't be played on anything but the machine. `"It's also something that you can play the same day you buy it, as long as you've got a feel for rhythm. That's the only important thing unless you develop a feel for music, you won't be able to get as much out of it." `Brown is careful to emphasise that the Rhythm Ace is not so much a substitute for a drummer and kit, as much as a new direction for the rhythmic basis of rock music. "The sounds it produces are like drum sounds," he says. "But they're not the same as drum sounds. They're percussion rather than drumming."' It goes on with some very grand ideas about adopting a new geometrical scale for music and so on and this should remind us that Arthur Brown's always been very good at unlikely ideas that he doen't necessarily intend to do; see also the bit about the encephalograph at the head of that page and the *three* variant biographies... But it's all a laugh innit. Bentley Rhythm Ace the band by the way were a splinter from Pop Will Eat Itself, of all people, though I never heard any so as to know if it sounded the same. All trivia, hopefully of interest to someone anyway, yours, Jon ObLP: The Bevis Frond - _Miasma_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK Sun Apr 6 13:09:42 2003 From: mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK (Mark Von Bargen) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:09:42 +0100 Subject: HW/OFF: Arthur Brown Message-ID: Jon Jarrett wrote: [snipped > Bentley Rhythm Ace the band by the way were a splinter from Pop > Will Eat Itself, of all people, though I never heard any so as to know if > it sounded the same. All trivia, hopefully of interest to someone anyway, > yours, > Jon Pop Will Eat Itself who, of course, covered Orgone Accumulator on a 4 track ep/single alongside a track by Sigue Sigue Sputnik and tracks by two other bands. Bentley Rythm Ace are from the break-beat end of the dance music spectrum, like a more meaty version of Fatboy Slim - dance music with guitars n'all. Mark From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sun Apr 6 13:35:01 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:35:01 +0100 Subject: Official Post From Hawkwind. In-Reply-To: <3DF745C4.20713.1781EA7@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Ted Jackson wrote: > On 11 Dec 2002 at 13:36, Paul Mather wrote: > > The shame is that Hawkwind really is a band that needs to be > > experienced live. I keep hearing that Dave isn't much a fan of > > live touring any more, though, which doesn't bode well. :-( > > > Then Dave, sadly, deserves what he gets. Obviously he's clueless about the way > things work, or unwilling to accept the truth... I don't think it's either of these. Various interviews with Dave, in particular the photo-interview on the Philm Freaks pages or whatever it is----yup, linked off , requires images and Javascript but actually worth it, but the few Dave quotes it has there seem to me to make it clear that what Dave would *like* to do is retire to the farm and live off his royalties. I don't know whether he can actually afford to do that or not, but he keeps the mothership going anyway, or so it seems. But he doesn't have to be happy about it, is the distinct sense I get. Now, me, I have no problem with that except that we keep being told to expect great things of a band whose leader seems to have had enough, and I as has often been made clear find this a bit of an insult to the fans' credibility. But hey, they're coming to my home town for the first time since it's been my home town, I'll go and see and remember what it's about I expect. Still won't be expecting the new album to be on sale there however. Yours, Jon ObCD: Brainticket - _Cottonwood Hill_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Sun Apr 6 14:20:17 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (Mike Montfort) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 14:20:17 -0400 Subject: Official Post From Hawkwind. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As everyone knows if you are on other lists I have been slagging off the decisions of the Band fairly consistently. I've been considering some of those positions carefully and though I still don't agree with some of the policies nor the people they have hired recently... it is in fact that it is THEIR band and Dave et al can do what they damn well please.. The hangers on and weird decisions (in my opinion only) made by the band does not in any way affect my enjoyment of the band's music. I still own every studio and live release recognized by the band and will buy the next one and the next and the next. By following the company line in our trading groups I hope the band understands that the fans support their decisions. I'm hoping some of the information slowly leaking out from the band shows that we have made the right decision to follow their requests with possibilities of world wide tours and maybe a new label. Dave is now over 60. Most people I know that age are fairly set in their ways. Most people I know their age do not go bouncing around the world playing gigs nightly. Think about that. Wouldn't you like to start thinking about retirement as well at that age....? Mike ________________________________________________ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." --Teddy Roosevelt. From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sun Apr 6 16:48:42 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:48:42 +0100 Subject: HW: Yuri etc... In-Reply-To: <007001c2a790$91ef3f20$96ad6fd4@lucidzoo> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Captain Bl at ck wrote, speaking of _In The Beginning_: > Indeed, I saw this CD in a record store in Barnstaple two days ago. > > But this begs a question; > > What sort of deal does he have that gets these things into the stores when > Voiceprint can't? Well, there are two answers to that, which I offer only as observations rather than suggesting I know much about it. First is that, round here at least, Voiceprint *can* get the stuff onto the shops. Round here is Cambrudge UK, as some of you know, and here we have an HMV and a large semi-independent called Andy's, both of which carry Voiceprint HW and Fall stuff at least of not more. There is also a FOPP, which doesn't, as far as I can tell, presumably using different distributors. They all carry the EMI stuff as well or instead. What Voiceprint seem to lack is any kind of extra-English distribution, but people on-list from outside the UK don't seem to be able to get the EMI stuff either, so I don't really understand that as they can hardly lack such things. Secondly, as for Dave Anderson, I imagine he can afford to pay a lot to distributors, as the only overheads he's meeting for these reissues are artwork, printing and pressing. And registering the new division of Demi Monde (I assume they are his labels really? Or is he just licensing out?) each time. But that might be half the answer, and the other half is probably that Demi Monde has been around, what, 15 years now, and has a decent-sized catalogue and somehow a respectable name. And a great deal of what's on it must be quite cheap to produce as I say. So Dave Anderson probably has a few good distribution deals which he can plug these things into whenever they come out. This is just guesswork, though. There's hope in it if I'm right, though, as Voiceprint only have to keep plugging at it and eventually the sheer size of the catalogue they're amassing will become sufficient to interest local distributors and stockists in cutting some sort of deal with them. But maybe there are other reasons people don't like to deal with Voiceprint. I remember Steve Pond saying something like that Dave Anderson could get away with anything because of sheer smarm value; maybe Rob Ayling lacks that. He's not seemed the easiest or most straightforward of people to deal with in what little contact I've had with him, meaning mostly his posts to this list. Just an opinion of course, yours, Jon ObCD: Jimi Hendrix - _Live at the Fillmore East_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Sun Apr 6 17:01:31 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:01:31 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: Not sure if anybody's posted about this before but 'In Search..' and 'Doremi..' are currently available, with all the extra tracks, as a double CD package. Its a double jewel (that is a double CD thickness case) with pretty uninspiring design featuring reduced version of the original covers against a white background (rather the like the old Castle 2 for original masters, or whatever, with 'Live '79' & 'Levitation'). Cost less than a tenner, I think. Nick From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Sun Apr 6 19:11:14 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 00:11:14 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: Hi, Yes - just had it in here at CDS - our price is around ?12 I think - have to check. Neat item if you've not got either already though, especially getting two remastered studio albums with the bonus tracks for this price. But not only that, we've also just had in the reissued "Epoch Eclipse" 3CD set in a double jewel case edition rather than the box set, and this sells at just ?16.99. What makes this a gem right now is that all the tracks on the second disc are from the deleted "Warrior" and Charisma label albums,the only current way to get them, and supposedly remastered versions too. Finally, add to that the reissue of the "Stasis" compilation album from Hawkwind at mid-price and it's EMI's turn to put the band on the reissue map. All available now I suppose I'd better tell you.......... Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Lee" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:01 PM Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Not sure if anybody's posted about this before but 'In Search..' and 'Doremi..' are currently available, with all the extra tracks, as a double CD package. Its a double jewel (that is a double CD thickness case) with pretty uninspiring design featuring reduced version of the original covers against a white background (rather the like the old Castle 2 for original masters, or whatever, with 'Live '79' & 'Levitation'). Cost less than a tenner, I think. Nick From Ilovemylife801 at AOL.COM Sun Apr 6 23:33:09 2003 From: Ilovemylife801 at AOL.COM (Dale K. Ford) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:33:09 EDT Subject: Official Post From Hawkwind. Message-ID: Point taken. From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Apr 7 03:27:10 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:27:10 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 16:38:30 +0100, M Holmes wrote: >Doug Pearson writes: > >> What evidence? ... > >What you'd need for proof is an instance where we >could compare a band with zero secondhand value with >a time when there was positive secondhand value and >show that new prices were higher in the second instance >when nothing else at all had changed. For obvious reasons, >those experimental conditions can't be satisfied. Yes, you're correct that your hypothesis is unprovable. The only times when secondhand CD/LP values go from zero (or close to zero) to high values is when the CD/LP in question is not available *at all*, new, and *only* secondhand, so that NO royalties are being paid. (From that standpoint, once could argue that high secondhand prices "cause" *lower* royalties, but of course, that would be confusing correlation with causality.) >You believe that the music >business is an exception for particular reasons and >I'm as yet unconvinced. I believe that the record business is different from those in which consumers *are* concerned about resale value (goods like homes, automobiles, "collectibles"/antiques/investments, etc.). >> Since we don't live in a world where people are shot for >> selling secondhand CD's, there's no way to verify whether >> that's a true conclusion or not. > >No, but it would tell us whether or not you believe >this effect would occur *at all* in the music business. Except that your hypothetical situation does not reflect the music business (or any "business"). It would only show whether I believed the effect would occur in a music business that worked by different rules than the one in our universe. >My point is that the absence of any secondhand >value would lead to lower new prices on average >but not necessarily in every specific instance. Yes, I certainly agree that low secondhand prices will, generally, more often than not, lead to lower new prices (and that lower new prices will also lead to lower secondhand prices), but I'm not convinced that *higher* secondhand prices will lead to higher new prices on a regular basis, especially because, as I said before, I believe that the highest secondhand prices are caused by the lack of availability of new equivalents, which makes discussion of "new" prices moot. >I agree that the resale value of a movie ticket is >zero after the movie is shown. (Yes, I'm certainly not claiming it's zero *before* the movie is shown, even though I wasn't clear on that.) >I do not agree with the first part (sorry for being unclear) >and it's not an argument until you prove that consumers in >general don't care about the resale value. I'd be quite >interested in how you think that might be proven though? They still buy movie tickets, right? If people are willing to buy things that have no resale value, that clearly shows that, at least in some cases, they do not care about resale value. I've said several times that I believe that consumers, in general, DO care about resale value of certain purchases, BUT that purchasing a CD is more analagous to purchasing a movie ticket than it is to buying an automobile. >Well that's the part where I'm ignorant. I admit I'd blithely assumed >that in general where prices were higher that led to higher royalties >for bands. No, it's the higher royalties that lead to higher retail prices. The manufacturer passes the royalty cost onto the wholesaler, who passes it onto the retailer, who passes it onto the customer. Not the other way around. >Is this in fact the case? presumably then most bands >try to pressure retailers to sell CD's for as close >to a penny as they can get because the lower the price, >the higher the sales and the more royalties they'd >get? You left out the words "over wholesale price" between "a penny" and "as they". But yes, of course the lowest possible retail price is always in the band's best interest, unless they're retailing their music themselves. >> (However, I'll add that a royalty system where >> bands/artists received a percentage of retail >> for every CD sold, either new or secondhand, >> WOULD be much more fair to the artists than the >> current system. > >That's a different argument and I won't automatically assume you're >right. Why do you think this would be more fair? Yes, *completely* different argument ... but I would think the reasoning would be obvious. Do you want that explanation in economic terms, or moral terms? >Why a percentage of secondhand sales if that's not >how it's done on primary sales? Because retail sale is the more accurate reflection of the music's "worth", since it represents what the end users, those who appreciate the music, value it at. >I'm also leery of the ceteris paribus assumption >here. If the band gained cash from this system then >someone would lose it and I doubt that they wouldn't >modify their behaviour due to that, and that could >be in some way which cut overall royalties. That statement is contradictory to your original theory. Adding royalties to the cost of secondhand CD's would add to the price of secondhand CD's. You claim that higher prices of secondhand CD's leads to *increased* royalties for the band. And more bluntly, bands currently receive zero royalties on used CD's. Even if this hypothetical system were to decrease overall sales of used CD's, *any* amount of royalty on used CD's is greater than zero ... ----------------------------------------------------- >Indeed, but this is the first disinflationary period >since the 1930's isn't it? So now both factors are >present and bingo, we get a stocks bubble a credit >bubble and now after asset rotation out of stocks, a >housing bubble. Coincidence? Inflation has certainly gone up and down plenty of times (but it's been pretty low overall at least since the '89 scare), and we're not seeing actual deflation yet (but it remains a likelier possibility than anytime since the 1930's). But I think the housing bubble is part of the same economic bubble that the stock market was, not a follow-up; it's just that it's more effort to sell a house than a share (or to change mutual fund distributions), and people are likelier to hold onto a house until they absolutely cannot. That makes it act slower. (Similar to what I describe with mutual fund managers vs. individual shareholders.) >The Fed certainly has decided that it's better to >try to keep the bubble going that take the medicine >that deflation will bring. >However, Austrian theory says that the longer you run >a bubble and the more people and debt that it involved, >the worse the aftermath. I'd contend that Greenspan has >averted a recession at the cost of a depression. You may be right. Are they guilty of wishful thinking for a soft landing instead of a crash? The latest indicators would seem to make those pretty slim hopes ... >> >I believe that there are no non-economic terms to >> >pretty much everything. >> >> And this is the main problem I have with both >> Marxists and Libertarian Laissez-Faire Capitalists >> (a pox on both your houses!). > >Well, mold anyway. Nasty. I'll take that back then, I wouldn't even wish that on the collective farm chief who insists on following the five-year-plan's directive for increased potato production at the expense of carrots, even though the market stalls are full of rotting potatoes and the peasants are rioting for carrots. >> One can quantify the economic >> loss of taking the time to stop to smell the >> flowers (based on time spent and "potential wages >> lost" or something like that), but not the non- >> economic enjoyment that is gained by smelling said >> flowers. > >I just doubt this. Simply ratchet up an offer of >money not to smell the floers unil someone takes >it and you have a measure of what smelling the >flowers is worth to them. And the economic reason for making the decision to pay people not to smell the flowers would be ... ??? >No. If I pay more for beer than you do it doesn't >necessarily mean I enjoy it more than you do, it >just means that enjoying beer is worth more to me >than enjoying beer is worth to you. There might >unltimately be a measure of subjective enjoyment >(some brain activity reading perhaps) but that's >not quite the same thing. > >Perhaps this is what you meant and we're actually in >agreement here? More or less. I think there *is* a difference between the economic worth of certain activities to different people, which can be quantified in economic terms; and the individual, subjective, enjoyment, of the same activities, which cannot be quantified, except in the broadest senses. That's why there's no way to prove, as the article you cite mentions, whether being too rich makes you unhappier (or happier). >> But those are economic *consequences* of a decision >> made for non-economic reasons, not economic *reasons*. > >Economics is about choices not money. Money is merely >one way in which we measure the value to people of >different choices. In that this is about a choice, >it's economics. Economics is about human behaviour >when confronted with options, it's not necessarily >about money or finance. The problem, then, that I see with economics, is that it doesn't *offer* any ways to measure the value(s) of those choices, *except* by means of money. Money does explain an awful lot of them, but not all, by a long shot ... >I see we disagree about even what economics is. If >you're saying that some choices are made without >recourse to money then I agree (though I don't >necessarily agree that it would be impossible >to determine monetary values to the individual >of the various choices). I do not agree that choices >made irrespective of money are not economics. There are already many other areas of science that deal with different aspects of human decision-making: linguistics & mathematics, philosophy & logic, psychology, and physiology & neural biology, to name a few of the heavies. For any one field to claim it has all the answers would be a bit conceited. >Perhaps, though at some point a manager of a porrly >performing 401K presumably has to sell if only to >stem further losses. The evidence is indeed that >they'll be less skittish than individuals. In this >case that often means they lost a lot more on bahalf >of their clients and they can now only claim to be >placed for the recovery. Also, when a large mutual fund dumps a particular stock, that can have an overall effect on the market indicators, while an individual shareholder's actions are negligeable, so those managers probably realize that if they dump the contents of one fund, it reduces the value of *all* their funds. >I guess money borrowed isn't perceived by many as the >same as money earned. And therein lies a good part of the appeal of Las Vegas! >Rents have fallen in SF though prices have risen. Yes (although the price increases have dramatically slowed since the boom years). >This kind of "divergence" is actually very common >in bubbles, particularly at the peak phase. >There was similar divergence between the Nasdaq >and Dow indices just before the bust started. The other interesting thing is that, just as prices fall before rents, higher prices fall before lower ones. The prices of *luxury* real estate in the bay area has been falling for several years now, but not yet enough to average out the price of middle class houses (partially, I'm sure, because people have sold the luxury houses they could no longer afford they payments on, and used the proceeds to buy considerably more modest ones). ------------------------------------------------------ >Perhaps, but given the details of electricity >deregulation, these people were certainly geniuses >at being stupid. The details of electricity deregulation are certainly not simple! And electricity is a market VERY different from any retail market, including most other energy sources (such as oil). >Given socialism's record of providing things, it'd >actually be much better to have the non-essential >things passed over to the various mini-soviets. >Unless e actually prefer people to starve or die in a >health queue. In the USA, where agricultural food is semi-socialized (those milk subsidies!), people aren't dying of starvation. However, because medical services are (for the most part) not socialized, there *are* people dying because they're not getting medical procedures that they need but can't afford. Other industrialized countries with socialized health care (Sweden, Canada, etc.) have longer life expectencies than the USA. Which latin american country has the highest life expectency? >PG&E went bankrupt because deregulation meant that >they bought electricity prices at the marginal cost >at 24 hour spot prices (that is they were barred >from buying wholesale and from arranging contracts to >supply for say a whole winter) This was only a problem because the energy trading firms were able to fraudulently drive up the spot prices; there was nothing to force them to sell electricity, as you say below, "at around the price it costs to make it". The only thing "unfree" about that market was the manipulation by the energy traders. >and there were price caps on what they could sell on >to customers. I did mention that this part was certainly not "free market". I wouldn't deny that! And as I said, that's the firewall that saved the customers (i.e. all the businesses and residents of California) from the same fate that befell PG&E. >A more fucked up and less free market system >would be hard to devise without a great deal of >thought and the failure mode would be obvious to >a bright six year old if explained in terms of >sweets. At the point when the deregulation scheme was legislated, spot prices were considerably lower than long-term contract energy prices, and had been for some time (which makes economic sense to me - with a contract, you're paying a premium for stability, in much the same way that the inefficiencies built into the milk distribution system are the premium paid for the stability of the food supply). When people see what looks like a "good deal" (in this example, cheap spot market energy prices), they don't want to believe that it might turn bad in the future (there's that pesky behavioral psychology again). 50 year old politicians are probably *better* at living in denial than bright six year olds. >It also saved them from having electricity some of >the time. It's been proven that any electricity "shortages" were manufactured by the traders in order to jack up prices. >Basically you stole cash from the pensioners who had >shares in PG&E. Woops, that turns out to be the >Californian state. I'll bet the taxpayers hurt for >that too. Not nearly as badly as if every company in California was bankrupted. And as for the, "oh those poor pensioners" argument (which was made in lots of op-ed columns at the time), two words: diversified portfolio. At the same time, some other pensioner was seeing (albeit temporarily!) a huge increase in his stock holdings from his shares in Enron. >What it was is a monumental cockup. No argument there!!! >What it wasn't is an example of anything like a >free market any more than forcing AndyG to buy CD's >individually at whatever price the owner asked Isn't an owner selling good/services for the best price he/she can get the essence of the "free market"? That's what the electricity traders did to PG&E. >Maybe once they've tried absolutely everything else, >they'll try free markets and you'll get electricity >at around the price it costs to make it. Electricity isn't like milk. If you don't like the price, you can't wait on buying anymore until you drive across town to the other store that has a lower price. The entire cockup shows that unlike with retail industries, competition in the electrical market drives prices UP, towards the higher price (as the lower-cost vendors try to match it - by the end of the crisis, EVERY provider/trader in the california market was doing this), rather than down towards the lower price. >Exercise for the reader: [snip, sorry] >Jeese Doug, we're not talking Evil Geniuses here. Thanks for the demonstration of 20/20 hindsight. Unfortunately, the Enron balance sheet debacle (completely separate from the California power crisis!) makes it pretty clear that the people in charge there were thoroughly evil, and pretty damned smart. >> Like I said, free markets for CD's = good; free >> markets for essential foodstuffs = bad (IMHO). > >Hardly. In our rigged milk markets for example, we >pay farmers not to have cows in order to cut down >on the excess milk. We pay a fixed price >to farmers above the market rate and so we still get >more milk than we need. Which prevents potential milk (or other foodstuff) shortages. A good thing IMHO. I've never live through a food shortage, but my mother grew up in rural missouri during the great depression. I would not want to share that experience. >This also applies to butter, meat, etc and >is why european food prices are around triple US food >prices even before the cost of taxation for all the >above is taken into account. I was wondering why I keep seeing all those photos of starving children in Europe who can't afford food. It must be priced out of their hands by those evil socialist governments! >Yeah, I'm sure glad they regulate essential services. >I can't wait for it to happen with CD's. I can live with shortages of CD's (heck, I'm living with a shortage of 'Hawklords/25 Years On' CD's right now with very little complaint), but living with shortages of food or electricity would really, really suck. -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From xl5 at IINET.NET.AU Mon Apr 7 03:46:56 2003 From: xl5 at IINET.NET.AU (William Duffy) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:46:56 +0800 Subject: OFF: Doctor Who MP3's (was Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: Hi there Don't know if any other companies are doing this officially, but the BBC are now starting to release the missing Doctor Who stories as audio dramas with linking narrated dialoque in MP3 format. They've released some already on CD, but have obviously seen that more & more people have the technology to play back in this format, & it probably saves on manufacturing of discs. William From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Mon Apr 7 10:56:50 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:56:50 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Doug Pearson's message of Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:27:10 -0400 Message-ID: Doug Pearson writes: > >Indeed, but this is the first disinflationary period since the 1930's > >isn't it? So now both factors are present and bingo, we get a stocks > >bubble a credit bubble and now after asset rotation out of stocks, a > >housing bubble. Coincidence? > Inflation has certainly gone up and down plenty of times (but it's > been pretty low overall at least since the '89 scare) Which is what us Kondratieff fans would expect. > and we're not > seeing actual deflation yet (but it remains a likelier possibility > than anytime since the 1930's). Indeed. > But I think the housing bubble is > part of the same economic bubble that the stock market was, not a > follow-up; it's just that it's more effort to sell a house than a > share (or to change mutual fund distributions), and people are > likelier to hold onto a house until they absolutely cannot. That > makes it act slower. (Similar to what I describe with mutual fund > managers vs. individual shareholders.) I largely agree, though I contend that there's been asset rotation from stocks into housing as a result of the lag. > >The Fed certainly has decided that it's better to try to keep the > >bubble going that take the medicine that deflation will bring. > >However, Austrian theory says that the longer you run a bubble and > >the more people and debt that it involved, the worse the aftermath. > >I'd contend that Greenspan has averted a recession at the cost of a > >depression. > You may be right. Are they guilty of wishful thinking for a soft > landing instead of a crash? That certainly seemed to be the case a couple of years ago. Certainly we'd be more likely to be talking about neo-Keynesians in charge than Austrians and so deman theories of soft landings would be more acceptable than money theories of busts following booms. > The latest indicators would seem to make > those pretty slim hopes ... What's interesting is that because of the war, the numbers are pretty much going under the radar. > >> One can quantify the economic loss of taking the time to stop to > >> smell the flowers (based on time spent and "potential wages lost" > >> or something like that), but not the non- economic enjoyment that > >> is gained by smelling said flowers. > >Perhaps this is what you meant and we're actually in agreement here? > More or less. I think there *is* a difference between the economic > worth of certain activities to different people, which can be > quantified in economic terms; and the individual, subjective, > enjoyment, of the same activities, which cannot be quantified, except > in the broadest senses. That's why there's no way to prove, as the > article you cite mentions, whether being too rich makes you unhappier > (or happier). OK, we agree here more or less. > >Economics is about choices not money. Money is merely one way in > >which we measure the value to people of different choices. In that > >this is about a choice, it's economics. Economics is about human > >behaviour when confronted with options, it's not necessarily about > >money or finance. > The problem, then, that I see with economics, is that it doesn't > *offer* any ways to measure the value(s) of those choices, *except* by > means of money. No, it measures choices in terms of the choices not made. If you want an ice cream instead of two Chicory Tip records then that tells us about their relative values to you (at that time). We could only measure this choice in terms of money if there were other choices offering you amounts of money to forego both. In that it's useful to have a unit of measurement other than scoops of ice cream or Chicory Tip records, economists try to do this a lot, but it doesn't make money any more privileged a unit of measurement, just a more convenient one due to its common acceptance. > >I see we disagree about even what economics is. If you're saying > >that some choices are made without recourse to money then I agree > >(though I don't necessarily agree that it would be impossible to > >determine monetary values to the individual of the various choices). > >I do not agree that choices made irrespective of money are not > >economics. > There are already many other areas of science that deal with different > aspects of human decision-making: linguistics & mathematics, > philosophy & logic, psychology, and physiology & neural biology, to > name a few of the heavies. For any one field to claim it has all the > answers would be a bit conceited. That's not what's claimed. I merely say that if it's about human choices then it's economics, not that if it's about economics then economists have it taped. [...] > Also, when a large mutual fund dumps a particular stock, that can have > an overall effect on the market indicators, while an individual > shareholder's actions are negligeable, so those managers probably > realize that if they dump the contents of one fund, it reduces the > value of *all* their funds. Assumptions of continuous liquidity were what blew LTCM out of the water in a potentially 1,000,000,000,000 Dollar wrong bet. I expect more fun and games from that particular gremlin before very long. > >Rents have fallen in SF though prices have risen. > Yes (although the price increases have dramatically slowed since the > boom years). > >This kind of "divergence" is actually very common in bubbles, > >particularly at the peak phase. There was similar divergence between > >the Nasdaq and Dow indices just before the bust started. > The other interesting thing is that, just as prices fall before rents, > higher prices fall before lower ones. The prices of *luxury* real > estate in the bay area has been falling for several years now, but not > yet enough to average out the price of middle class houses (partially, > I'm sure, because people have sold the luxury houses they could no > longer afford they payments on, and used the proceeds to buy > considerably more modest ones). I think economists call this "price compression" and as you hint, it doesn't bode well. > In the USA, where agricultural food is semi-socialized (those milk > subsidies!), people aren't dying of starvation. However, because > medical services are (for the most part) not socialized, there *are* > people dying because they're not getting medical procedures that they > need but can't afford. Whereas in our socialised medical system, they die queueing for operations at zero price. If the price is too low then demand exceeds supply and some of it goes unsatisfied. Happened with bread in the Soviet Union and it happens with healthcare here. > Other industrialized countries with socialized > health care (Sweden, Canada, etc.) have longer life expectencies than > the USA. Due to infant mortality being higher in the US, rather than poorer healthcare. You guys have the best healthcare on the planet. As ou say though, not everyone gets it. OTOH many people in the US without insurance are fit young adults who'd rather spend their money on other things and just take the risk. Who are we to say they should do otherwise? > >PG&E went bankrupt because deregulation meant that they bought > >electricity prices at the marginal cost at 24 hour spot prices (that > >is they were barred from buying wholesale and from arranging > >contracts to supply for say a whole winter) > This was only a problem because the energy trading firms were able to > fraudulently drive up the spot prices; there was nothing to force them > to sell electricity, as you say below, "at around the price it costs > to make it". Why should we be able to use force to make people sell their produce at a price we'd like? Would you like someone to use force to have you sell them your record collectioon at their preferred price? The way to have people sell close to cost of production is to have the option of taking one's business elsewhere. That's where free markets come in. They're called free markets because agreement to a deal is voluntary and not subject to force. Incidentally, it's because I'm opposed to force and believe that human interactions should be voluntary and cooperative that I'm a libertarian in favour of free markets. The idea of forccing someone to sell you something at any price I find morally abhorent. > The only thing "unfree" about that market was the > manipulation by the energy traders. Hardly. There are more rigged markets in existence, but people have to work quite hard to create them. > >and there were price caps on what they could sell on to customers. > I did mention that this part was certainly not "free market". I > wouldn't deny that! And as I said, that's the firewall that saved the > customers (i.e. all the businesses and residents of California) from > the same fate that befell PG&E. In essence the shareholders of PG&E were forced to hand over cash to customers to the point that their shares became worthless. Admittedly though, they made a bet when they signed the contracts. > >What it wasn't is an example of anything like a free market any more > >than forcing AndyG to buy CD's individually at whatever price the > >owner asked > Isn't an owner selling good/services for the best price he/she can get > the essence of the "free market"? That's what the electricity traders > did to PG&E. No. PG&E couldn't buy any one unit of electricity any cheaper than the price they paid for the last unit they needed. In any normal situation they'd have been able to buy bulk and forward at a discount and would have been able to buy cheap units before paying more for the last units. The arrangement stiffed them royally and created the incentives for the very fraud you decry. > >Jeese Doug, we're not talking Evil Geniuses here. > Thanks for the demonstration of 20/20 hindsight. Unfortunately, the > Enron balance sheet debacle (completely separate from the California > power crisis!) makes it pretty clear that the people in charge there > were thoroughly evil, and pretty damned smart. People like Doug Noland had this, and more, taped in 1998 but were regarded as lunatics. I think the yank public decided to ignore all the problems here; with stock options; with pension funds; with pro foprma earnings statements, etc etc etc just so long as the share prices based on the false information were rising. It's hindsight to me in the large but it wasn't hindsight for everyone. > >> Like I said, free markets for CD's = good; free markets for > >> essential foodstuffs = bad (IMHO). > >Hardly. In our rigged milk markets for example, we pay farmers not > >to have cows in order to cut down on the excess milk. We pay a fixed > >price to farmers above the market rate and so we still get more milk > >than we need. > Which prevents potential milk (or other foodstuff) shortages. A good > thing IMHO. I've never live through a food shortage, but my mother > grew up in rural missouri during the great depression. I would not > want to share that experience. I suspect we're a little too late in the game to avoid that. It won't be an exact rerun of course but it won't be any nicer either. By most of the figures that matter, the bubble we've just had produced outlier figures much worse than the 1920's one and history does seem to agree with the Austrians about bigger bubbles producing bigger busts. > >This also applies to butter, meat, etc and is why european food > >prices are around triple US food prices even before the cost of > >taxation for all the above is taken into account. > I was wondering why I keep seeing all those photos of starving > children in Europe who can't afford food. It must be priced out of > their hands by those evil socialist governments! The thing is that if you pay triple prices for food then you have much less money left over for the other enjoyable things in life. You can't live without food the way you can without electricity. What you do see regularly on TV is europeans who are poorer than Americans. A big part of the reason for this is that we have enough milk to bathe in it and more besides. Whatever you might imagine, more than enough is not a benefit. > I can live with shortages of CD's (heck, I'm living with a shortage of > 'Hawklords/25 Years On' CD's right now with very little complaint), > but living with shortages of food or electricity would really, really > suck. We have deregulated power markets here. Prices have gotten continuously cheaper and absent some bad snowstorms, no power cuts here. The only fuckups are in the nuclear markets, which are of course, rigged to the eyeballs. FoFP From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Mon Apr 7 11:45:23 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (Duc De Montfort) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:45:23 -0400 Subject: Doctor Who MP3's (was Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: <168901c2fcd9$e07964b0$0a01a8c0@xl5> Message-ID: Intereseting point. (being a big Dr. Who fan) But I'd say that an audio drama is much less demanding frequency wise than music. Point being there is not much loss in MP3 for voice. Opinions vary as to the same argument for music. Just a conversation point however. :-) Mike -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of William Duffy Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 3:47 AM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: OFF: Doctor Who MP3's (was Hawkwind MP3's) Hi there Don't know if any other companies are doing this officially, but the BBC are now starting to release the missing Doctor Who stories as audio dramas with linking narrated dialoque in MP3 format. They've released some already on CD, but have obviously seen that more & more people have the technology to play back in this format, & it probably saves on manufacturing of discs. William From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Mon Apr 7 11:58:17 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:58:17 -0400 Subject: Doctor Who MP3's (was Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:45:23AM -0400, Duc De Montfort wrote: => Intereseting point. (being a big Dr. Who fan) => => But I'd say that an audio drama is much less demanding frequency wise than => music. This is certainly true---especially if that voice is recorded under studio conditions where other ambient noise is dampened out. (I believe ~8 KHz bandwidth is sufficient to capture most human spoken vocal ranges, Gilli Smyth excepted, of course.;) => Point being there is not much loss in MP3 for voice. Opinions vary as to => the same argument for music. Especially if that music is recorded live. Much of the "room ambience" is contained in the higher frequency ranges, which is exactly the range that MPEG encoding usually deems redundant when compressing, given that most of the spectral energy is concentrated in the mid/lower frequencies. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why studio recordings tend to sound much better than audience recordings when MPEG compressed. In the studio, they take great pains to eliminate ambient noise. Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." --- Frank Vincent Zappa From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 7 14:04:36 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:04:36 +0100 Subject: HW/OFF: So Bob was wrong then! In-Reply-To: <001201c2b339$17847660$d024fd3e@yourpnqspyopyu> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Nick Lee wrote: > "Al, why don't you get a haircut?" > Marion Davies (01/03/1897 - 09/22/1961), to Albert Einstein > US actor > > So was Mr Calvert wrong on more than one count here then? Well, at least two, as Einstein was also married. Though whether he married her when she was stilla girl, I don't know, but ugh, semantics. On the other hand, remember the wise words of Saint Bob: "Anyone who knows my work will realise, that however bad it seems it's all intentional." And what with the small but significant number of physicists I've managed to enrage with the track, I think that Bob knew perfectly well what he was doing... Yours, Jon ObCD: Daevid Allen's University of Errors - _Money Doesn't Make It_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Mon Apr 7 14:17:39 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:17:39 +0100 Subject: HW/OFF: So Bob was wrong then! Message-ID: > Well, at least two, as Einstein was also married. Though whether > he married her when she was stilla girl, I don't know, but ugh, > semantics. On the other hand, remember the wise words of Saint > Bob: "Anyone who knows my work will realise, that however bad it seems > it's all intentional." And what with the small but significant number of > physicists I've managed to enrage with the track, I think that Bob knew > perfectly well what he was doing... Yours, > Jon > That'll be the Galilleo/Copernicus thing, I guess... I believe Al had something of a crush on his cousin (maybe the girl you refer to?). Any physicist/historians out there able to set this one straight? From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Apr 7 15:02:17 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:02:17 -0400 Subject: HW: Yuri etc... Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:48:42 +0100, Jon Jarrett wrote: >What Voiceprint seem to lack is >any kind of extra-English distribution, but people on-list from >outside the UK don't seem to be able to get the EMI stuff either, so I >don't really understand that as they can hardly lack such things. That may be true for the smaller extra-English markets, but in San Francisco, it's pathetically easy to find Voiceprint releases (at least, same as with Jon, Hawkwind and the Fall, the bands I'm most interested in), both at the corporate (Virgin Megawhore) and indie (Amoeba, Rasputins) store levels. The only problem is that they're not very timely about it; I still haven't seen copies of Canterbury yet (so I ordered mine online), but the Collectors series, Weird reissues, 'Yule Ritual', etc. can all be easily found here. I'm sure the situation is similar in NYC, LA, and Chicago, but probably not in smaller markets. -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 7 14:57:44 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:57:44 +0100 Subject: OFF: Re: Once again music gets the blame In-Reply-To: <200301081526.PAA22556@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, M Holmes wrote: > Cpt Blue Skin writes: > > > I dont think people should be carrying firearms to go outdoors to town etc - > > but having said that - I have known woman (in america) who have avoided > > being mugged or raped because they were able to pull a gun and scare the > > attackers off long enough to get to safety. > > Well yeah, there aren't so many muggings indoors, though sadly it's far > from unknown. > > One caveat for the UK though: folks who carry to the pub definitely > ought to hand them in at the bar before being served, and pick up the > next day. > > I'm sure the muggers would get the drift though, but the risks of > drunkards probably outweigh the risks to drunkards in that case. > > How do they handle that issue in redneck towns in the US? Well, right, there's this Lynyrd Skynyrd song called `Saturday Night Special' which answers that question very nicely... (Roughly, `they don't'. Though times may have changed.) > > I certainly do believe that a homeowner should have the right to have a > > registered weapon for self defense and should have the right to use that > > weapon if someone breaks into their home. Not like here in Australia where > > if someone breaks into your home (even if they are armed) and you > > practically have to hand them a questionaire to determine whether or not > > they are actually breaking in with intent to harm you or just to rob you > > before you are able to defend yourself - AND EVEN THEN you still might end > > up being charged. > > That's pretty much the state of affairs here in the UK after the > Dunblane Safety At Work Act. Hell, if a home invader trips on a child's > toy left carelessly on the floor you can be sued. > > My blood reaches fahrenheit 451 every time a politician asks "How can we > stop crime?". Well, I don't want to get into this as it's usually argued, for and agains gun control, especially given that disarmament just isn't an issue for which this generation of politicians is going to be remembered, but I think that guns are a means of committing crime, not a cause of crime itself. Violent crime is a broader phenomenon than gun crime and one which includes it. I've seen all the statistics Mike quoted earlier in this thread argued with at various points, the states whose crime rates fell after legalisation in the USA are said to have done so as violent crime dropped country-wide anyway, and not to have exceeded that trend, and fundamentally, I didn't do the surveys and there are too many interest groups out there to trust anyone else's statistics. I think there's a wider way to look at it, which is cultural. In Britain guns are still seen as taboo by the moral majority (if you believe that such phrases aren't oxymoronic). In the USA, anything but. This informs different attitudes. Gun crime gets more serious consideration from the police and there's a cost-benefit analysis anyone planning on using one has to make before doing so, like the risks involved in killing a policeman. In the USA, because guns are legitimate and Constitutional gosh-durn-it, no such stigma. This is a factor which will influence behaviour and any debate about legalisation has to take that into account. Meanwhile, in each country, violent crime rises and falls according to other factors. Availability of guns only adds a method to the mix; it might make instant spontaneous assault (whether in defence or no) with lethal force easier, but someone plotting to perpetrate violent crime will do this with what they can get away with. Where guns are rare, they won't need a gun because the victim won't be carrying one, and so on. In that sense it seems clear to me that guns breed guns, and the NRA rhetoric takes this to its most insane logical extent. What is the real factor that needs to be addressed is not how people can protect themselves against muggers, but, why the hell are there so many damn muggers anyway? And this is not a question that has an answer in the form, `because there aren't enough guns', because guns don't bring better rehabilitation programmes or investment in inner city education and leisure facilities, to pick a few choice possible factors, to say nothing of empowerment in policy-making which is the lack that's currently making me contemplate violence against the Establishment. But addressing these problems, you know, they might take tax money, and priorities and perspectives that last for longer than five years. Two cheers for democracy, or its poor relative which we currently enjoy. Yours, Jon ObCD: Gong - _Zero To Infinity_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From mlicht at CYBERMESA.COM Mon Apr 7 19:33:25 2003 From: mlicht at CYBERMESA.COM (Mark Licht) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:33:25 -0600 Subject: HW: Oscillations Message-ID: Another Dave Anderson re-release?? HAWKWIND-OSCILLATIONS $15.95 From starfield at SUPANET.COM Mon Apr 7 13:44:39 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:44:39 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: "What makes this a gem right now is that all the tracks on the second disc are from the deleted "Warrior" and Charisma label albums,the only current way to get them, and supposedly remastered versions too." What exactly does 'remastered' mean, anyway? If you make a digital recording from a vinyl copy, does that constitute 'remastering'? To my mind, a 'remastered' recoding should be taken from the first generation stereo tapes; that is, the actual ones that were used when the stereo tracks were mixed down. But I wonder in how many cases the tapes actually used for 'remastering' are just an earlier generation of a multiple copy used for pressing vinyl? I mean, do the EMI re-issues actually sound like they were taken from the original stereo masters? Thoughtz? From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Apr 7 21:43:22 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:43:22 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:44:39 +0100, Captain Bl at ck wrote: >What exactly does 'remastered' mean, anyway? It can mean a lot of things - and it can mean next to nothing. The one thing I know for sure is that it's probably one of the most overused terms in the CD industry at the moment! However, I can tell you what *I* consider it to be. >If you make a digital >recording from a vinyl copy, does that constitute 'remastering'? Not a straight transfer, no. But if the digital recording is then edited to remove surface noise, re-eq'ed to obliterate any accidental vestige of the RIAA curve in audible frequencies, expanded to allow for the wider dynamic range possible with CD's (of course, most remastering jobs these days do the opposite, but that's a whole *other* rant!), has the stereo image re-created to allow for things not possible with vinyl (hard panning of bass frequencies, for instance), etc., then it definitely qualifies as "remastered". I've heard some mastered-from-vinyl releases that sounded like crap, and others that sound indistinguishable from a properly-mastered digital recording (see below). >To my mind, a 'remastered' recoding should be taken from the first >generation stereo tapes; that is, the actual ones that were used when the >stereo tracks were mixed down. That's not always the best idea (although you're correct that it usually is). For an example, I'll again mention my friend Karl, who does an excellent reissue label. One of his first projects was an album for which the original multitracks had been recorded using dbx noise reduction, but were not decoded at mixdown, so the original master tapes and vinyl version of the album sound awful (if you've ever played a dbx-encoded cassette on a non-dbx deck, you know what I'm talking about). Fortunately, he had access to the original multitracks, so he was able to hire a skilled engineer (and a dbx decoder) to remix the album (which was a very good thing in this case - it turned out that the original mix was very "conservative", and left out a lot of the cool sounds & fx that were on the multitracks, but had never been heard by anyone except the band and the original recording engineer). However, the best (or at least the best-known) track on the album had a number of special effects (ring-modulated vocals, etc.) which had been added at the original mixdown, and were therefore not present on the multitrack tape; the engineer attempted to re-create the effects, but was unable to get the sounds close enough. So they decided to remaster that one track from vinyl (since it had been released as a single which they didn't have the master stereo tape for, but at least proper dbx decoding *had* been used). They found the cleanest copy of the single in the bandleader's collection, transferred it to digital, and did all the good things that I described in the previous paragraph. When I listen to the CD, I can't tell the difference between the remixed tracks and the one mastered-from-vinyl track. >But I wonder in how many cases the tapes >actually used for 'remastering' are just an earlier generation of a >multiple copy used for pressing vinyl? The Griffin version of 'Warrior' is said to have come from US Atco's safety master, which would make it at least two generations removed from the original UK master (UK master -> US "mother" -> US safety). It sounds better than the Dojo mastered-from-vinyl version, but I would hope that a subsequent reissue *does* come from lower-generation masters. But that's just one factor affecting the sound quality. An original master trasferred to digital using crap A/D converters is going to sound worse than a later- generation copy of the master transferred using state-of-the-art converters. >I mean, do the EMI re-issues actually sound like they were taken from the >original stereo masters? They obviously haven't been remixed (unless someone did an *extremely* accurate job of matching the originals). But although my ears are pretty good, there's no way I could tell whether they came from a first, second, third (or subsequent) generation master. Hiss & noise don't build up nearly as quickly with wide-format (1/4"? 1/2") high-speed (probably 15 or 30 ips) tapes as they do with cassettes. >Thoughtz? Assuming that 'Warrior' & the Charisma albums are going to be reissued on CD, and assuming that those CD's will be "remastered" (as opposed to the Virgin issues, which sound to my ears like straight transfers from some generation of master tape to digital through crappy 1980's-technology converters), I hope that the mastering is done by someone with good ears, who understands the strengths and weaknesses of Hawkwind's music (especially as it relates to those five albums, which display a *considerable* evolution of sound, and each have their own individual strengths and weaknesses - to use a bunch of cliches, my ideal mastering foci for each album would be: 'Warrior' - "powerful"; 'Astounding Sounds' - "lush"; 'Quark' - "warm"; 'Hawklords' - "clean"; 'PXR5' - hmmmm ... that one's tough since there's no consistent overall sound to it because of the different sources [studio vs. live vs. demo], the way there is for the other four - making it sound consistent will be work enough for the mastering engineer), and who *doesn't* make them sound like every other rock release circa 2003 (the only thing worse than a "dated" recording is a "dated" mastering job that doesn't fit the original recording!). (I'd be very curious to hear if anyone particularly agreed or disagreed with my rough characterization of those four albums.) -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 8 01:55:30 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:55:30 -0400 Subject: OFF: The Magic Band Message-ID: http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,931097,00.html some good links at the end too Nick From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 8 02:17:05 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:17:05 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:56:50 +0100, M Holmes wrote: > >Whereas in our socialised medical system, they die queueing for >operations at zero price. If the price is too low then demand exceeds >supply and some of it goes unsatisfied. Are you suggesting that if people in the UK had to pay for (say) coronary artery bypass grafts, then fewer British people would require them? If you're not suggesting that, what does your above paragraph mean? Nick From xl5 at IINET.NET.AU Tue Apr 8 02:37:20 2003 From: xl5 at IINET.NET.AU (William Duffy) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:37:20 +0800 Subject: Hawkwind DVDs Message-ID: Hi all Here's an idea. How about someone re-releasing the Chronicles of the Black Sword DVD, with all the other tracks from the Live Chronicles CD included as audio tracks (presuming there is no more video footage)? Also, any chance of someone bringing out another DVD with the clips made for the Space Bandits & Palace Springs material (I think the company was called Taste)? William From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 8 03:34:58 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:34:58 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:17:05 -0400, nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM wrote: >On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:56:50 +0100, M Holmes wrote: > >> >>Whereas in our socialised medical system, they die queueing for >>operations at zero price. If the price is too low then demand exceeds >>supply and some of it goes unsatisfied. > > >Are you suggesting that if people in the UK had to pay for (say) coronary >artery bypass grafts, then fewer British people would require them? > >If you're not suggesting that, what does your above paragraph mean? OK, I'm being unnecessarily obtuse, so I'll clarify. I assume you mean that if money was changing hands, then the service would improve, waiting list times would decrease, etc., and thus demand would no longer exceed supply. But these kinds of assumptions about supply and demand may not be as readily applicable to healthcare as to buying a loaf of bread, to use your other example. When you buy a loaf of bread, you can be pretty sure you're getting the same as the next person who's also buying bread. But two people going for a similar operation are not in the same situation: firstly their underlying medical problems will not be identical, although they may be similar. They may receive quite different standards of surgery and aftercare. They may respond in very different ways to the anaesthetic, the surgery itself, and any other aspects of the treatment. One may develop fatal complications while the other does not. And so on. In short, I'm extremely wary of theories of health economics where medical interventions are conceptualised as being like consumer goods on a supermarket shelf. For what it's worth, I believe it would be possible to run a better health service without having to pour further billions into it- but only if some bold moves were made first. The biggest cause of overspend in many NHS trusts is money spent on agency nurses, because there aren't enough regular nurses to staff the wards. If regular nurses' pay was doubled, I suspect this would result in massive savings in the long run. None of which has much to do with buying CD's.. which is sort of my point. Nick From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 8 05:11:54 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 05:11:54 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: Damn, I knew I should have resisted the temptation to sift through this thread. Anyway: On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:53:59 +0100, M Holmes wrote: >Secondhand value is *estimated* >conciously or unconciously by buyers of new product. This really seems to be the crux of Mike's argument, at least as far as CD's go. I've bought hundreds of CD's, as have most of us here, and not once can I remember pausing to consciously consider what the resale value on any particular CD might be and then factoring that guess into my "shall I buy or not" deliberations. Of course this might not be true for everyone, but a quick straw poll of friends indicates that others do not make this conscious consideration either. Which leaves us with the assertion that we are all doing this *unconsciously*. Now, I wouldn't claim to know much about economics, but I do know quite a bit about theories of conscious and unconscious mental processes. And in general (although I'll happily admit this is a conceptual minefield), unconscious processes are thought to include certain elements of sensory/perceptual processing, and some cognitive and emotional processes such as the repression of unpleasant impulses or prejudices etc. And undoubtedly unconscious factors can affect our behaviour in all sorts of curious ways. However, I have never come across any theory which would allow for an unconscious estimate of the secondhand value of a consumer item, and the idea strikes me as wildly implausible. If people are not, in fact, thinking about possible resale value when they buy CD's, where does this leave the argumnent? Nick From achad13 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 8 06:42:36 2003 From: achad13 at HOTMAIL.COM (dave evans) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:42:36 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb Message-ID: "None of which has much to do with buying CD's.. which is sort of my point." and those of use who are using dial-up modems, so effectively paying to get this list PER WORD are getting hacked off with the reams of pontification on economics. Take it offlist please? From haarp at REDJELLYFISH.NET Tue Apr 8 07:55:13 2003 From: haarp at REDJELLYFISH.NET (B. Vaughan) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 04:55:13 -0700 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: On the characterization of the Hawkwind albums you mentioned, I can say I agree with them regarding "Astounding Sounds", "Quark", & "Hawklords". I used to have those 3 on vinyl a long time ago. With "Warrior" & "PXR5", I can't say because I've never heard all the contents of those albums, but I'm hoping to cure that malady oneday..... Cheers, Brian http://totm.iuma.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ Assuming that 'Warrior' & the Charisma albums are going to be reissued on CD, and assuming that those CD's will be "remastered" (as opposed to the Virgin issues, which sound to my ears like straight transfers from some generation of master tape to digital through crappy 1980's-technology converters), I hope that the mastering is done by someone with good ears, who understands the strengths and weaknesses of Hawkwind's music (especially as it relates to those five albums, which display a *considerable* evolution of sound, and each have their own individual strengths and weaknesses - to use a bunch of cliches, my ideal mastering foci for each album would be: 'Warrior' - "powerful"; 'Astounding Sounds' - "lush"; 'Quark' - "warm"; 'Hawklords' - "clean"; 'PXR5' - hmmmm ... that one's tough since there's no consistent overall sound to it because of the different sources [studio vs. live vs. demo], the way there is for the other four - making it sound consistent will be work enough for the mastering engineer), and who *doesn't* make them sound like every other rock release circa 2003 (the only thing worse than a "dated" recording is a "dated" mastering job that doesn't fit the original recording!). (I'd be very curious to hear if anyone particularly agreed or disagreed with my rough characterization of those four albums.) -Doug jasret at mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Tue Apr 8 08:48:06 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:48:06 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: nickmedford@HOTMAIL.COM's message of Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:17:05 -0400 Message-ID: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:56:50 +0100, M Holmes wrote: > > > > >Whereas in our socialised medical system, they die queueing for > >operations at zero price. If the price is too low then demand exceeds > >supply and some of it goes unsatisfied. > > Are you suggesting that if people in the UK had to pay for (say) coronary > artery bypass grafts, then fewer British people would require them? Exactly so. If people don't have to pay for healthcare then at the margin they will be less careful of their health. It's all about incentives. However a greater effect might be that if the price went up, more people would be interested in supplying the demand based on the profit motive and so fewer people would die in the queue. FoFP From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Mon Apr 7 18:24:18 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:24:18 +0100 Subject: HW: Yuri etc... Message-ID: Love to add my voice to this one so apologies if it goes on a bit. No matter what distribution deal any label has, the buck stops at the store/shop buyer - if he or she does not want that Hawkwind album in his or her shop, then it does not matter one jot who the distributor is and how far-reaching the distribution is. In terms of independent shops fighting for survival- or doing pretty well - it is the units that walk out of the door versus the attarctiveness of the stock that counts, in addition to knowing the sort of musical direction the shop has and the "sort of thing" the customers want. Record company reps these days do not tend to do the "bullet-at-the-head" style sell-in that they used to do in the late seventies so that if a store buyer says no, the rep takes it as no - and carries on. Most stores would far rather sell twenty Godspeed albums than worry about the one Hawkwind sale, but that can also be due to the age range and musical awareness of the people in the shop, allied, as I said to knowing what their market is all about. In terms of the "multiples', it's a different affair. HMV only have central buying for all stores. The shop managers have no say in what gets stocked in that shop. Virgin meanwhile, currently it is rumoured to be operating under a 290 million pound year-on-year loss, may be generally being even more cautious with regard to stock, and understandably so if that is true. The chain independents such as Fopp and Music Zone are doing quite well, have individual shop buying allied to the flexibility of central stocking but being shops of a rather smaller square footage,have to make each stock unit "count" so it's still open to debate as to how any Hawkwind album would be treated here. Voiceprint CD's tend to be sold into the shops by phone care of Nova - not sure if they have a rep force - while Dave Anderson's stuff tends to be sold into shops by visiting reps - maybe there's a difference? Demi-Monde, formerly distributed by Rough Trade then Magnum, has now undergone more licensing chameleon-like changes than I've had hot dinners. You can currently find his product under the guises of Burning Airlines, Dressed To Kill, Pegasus, Alchemy Entertainment, etc,etc- the list goes on. More licensing than you can shake a stick at. It's the old battle between having one slice of excellent product versus tons of slices of inferior product, the former not quite as "in-your-face" as the latter. Voiceprint have a good overseas distribution, via Caroline I believe, but then we're back to the shop buyer - full circle. The sped at which the Voiceprint stuff gets out there is, I imagine, down to the process of selling-in taking orders, supplying orders, exporting goods getting good s to shops, etc - all takes time the way it's done, but then that's why the prices are kept down. I'm hoping to put the new Krel CD through national distribution via RSK in the UK - if it works, you can guarantee I'll let the Hawk crew know about it, but if the shops don't want Hawkwind, what chance has Krel got to get through the door - still, it won't be for want of trying. Watch this space. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Pearson" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:02 PM Subject: Re: HW: Yuri etc... > On Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:48:42 +0100, Jon Jarrett > wrote: > >What Voiceprint seem to lack is > >any kind of extra-English distribution, but people on-list from > >outside the UK don't seem to be able to get the EMI stuff either, so I > >don't really understand that as they can hardly lack such things. > > That may be true for the smaller extra-English markets, but in San > Francisco, it's pathetically easy to find Voiceprint releases (at least, > same as with Jon, Hawkwind and the Fall, the bands I'm most interested in), > both at the corporate (Virgin Megawhore) and indie (Amoeba, Rasputins) > store levels. The only problem is that they're not very timely about it; I > still haven't seen copies of Canterbury yet (so I ordered mine online), but > the Collectors series, Weird reissues, 'Yule Ritual', etc. can all be > easily found here. I'm sure the situation is similar in NYC, LA, and > Chicago, but probably not in smaller markets. > > -Doug > jasret at mindspring.com From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Tue Apr 8 09:02:48 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:02:48 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: nickmedford@HOTMAIL.COM's message of Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:34:58 -0400 Message-ID: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > >>Whereas in our socialised medical system, they die queueing for > >>operations at zero price. If the price is too low then demand exceeds > >>supply and some of it goes unsatisfied. > > > > > >Are you suggesting that if people in the UK had to pay for (say) coronary > >artery bypass grafts, then fewer British people would require them? > > > >If you're not suggesting that, what does your above paragraph mean? > > OK, I'm being unnecessarily obtuse, so I'll clarify. It seemed a perfectly clear question to me. > I assume you mean that > if money was changing hands, then the service would improve, waiting list > times would decrease, etc. Provided the pricing meant that extra supply could be provided at less than the price charged in order that investors could gain a normal return on capital. I'd also expect people to eat fewer pies, drink less beer, or walk a little more often if they knew they'd get hit for the costs of their own healthcare (or that they'd exercise because insurers cut them a deal for spending registered time at the gym as happens in the US). > and thus demand would no longer exceed supply. > But these kinds of assumptions about supply and demand may not be as > readily applicable to healthcare as to buying a loaf of bread, to use your > other example. It could be argued thusly. However my partner is an oncologist and so I'm more regularly treated to arguments pertaining to the economics of healthcare than I am to those concerning the music business and thus I'm more confident of my ground here. Nobody who's taken seriously in argument on the subject doubts that due to the price being lower than the market one, that demand must be queued by time rather than price. Indeed the majority of medics would kill (feh) to have the government simply admit this and move on to discussing how to decide which queues get priority (as has happened in some states in the US such as, I believe, Oregon). > When you buy a loaf of bread, you can be pretty sure you're getting the > same as the next person who's also buying bread. But two people going for a > similar operation are not in the same situation: firstly their underlying > medical problems will not be identical, although they may be similar. They > may receive quite different standards of surgery and aftercare. They may > respond in very different ways to the anaesthetic, the surgery itself, and > any other aspects of the treatment. One may develop fatal complications > while the other does not. And so on. I've no argument with that and if it affected pricing then so be it. That's rather a side issue to debating free at the point of sale versus more free market models. > In short, I'm extremely wary of theories of health economics where medical > interventions are conceptualised as being like consumer goods on a > supermarket shelf. How about treating health advice and intervention in the same way as stockbroker advice and car mechanic intervention? The free market is already adapted to non-commoditised goods and services and to markets in which predictive value is uncertain. > For what it's worth, I believe it would be possible to run a better health > service without having to pour further billions into it- but only if some > bold moves were made first. The biggest cause of overspend in many NHS > trusts is money spent on agency nurses, because there aren't enough regular > nurses to staff the wards. If regular nurses' pay was doubled, I suspect > this would result in massive savings in the long run. There are so many screwups in the NHS that we could start from just about anywhere. I've heard recently of operations being cancelled because a couple of beds were occupied medium term by two old folks leaving surgery for lung cancer. Their homes were damp and they couldn't be released back to them for fear of fungal infection. Social services took three months to get another council house or damp treatment and so many operations were cancelled through leack of recovery beds. It's just our version of Soviet factories producing thousands of size 8 left shoes because it was easier to meet a 5 year plan by producing all the same model of shoe(*) If you want something done efficiently, don't do it under a socialist model. FoFP * Assuming of course that this wasn't apocryphal (though it says enough about communism that there's even room for doubt) but you get what I mean. From Joe.Lofft at ITEC.MAIL.SUNY.EDU Tue Apr 8 09:34:02 2003 From: Joe.Lofft at ITEC.MAIL.SUNY.EDU (Lofft, Joe) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:34:02 -0400 Subject: on TV in two days! Message-ID: Was this actually on last night? I went to program my VCR to record it, but my program guide showed it as being "The Doors" episode. -----Original Message----- From: Jason Scruton [mailto:js3619 at ACMENET.NET] Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:18 AM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: BOC: on TV in two days! April 2, 2003 VH-1 CLASSIC will be showing a half-hour of BOC videos and interview on their "Headline Act" show. The show will include "classic videos from the group and an exclusive new interview with band members Buck Dharma and Eric Bloom, who stopped by the VH1 Classic studio to discuss their new CD/DVD "A Long Day's Night." The show premieres Monday, April 7 at 7pm. From youless at LVCM.COM Tue Apr 8 11:43:25 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:43:25 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: Oh all right then, I'll bite... 'Warm' for Quark and 'Clean' for Hawklords are perfect one-word characterisations of those albums, although Hawklords could be considered 'clean' only by HW's standards, I suspect - cf. the muddier tone of, say, Doremi. (BTW, the single version of 25 Years is far from 'clean' ; it snarls!) PXR5 is like a box of chocolates with soft- and hard-centres, dark and light chocolate etc. WOTEOT has too much going on for one word to charactise it as successfully, but if anything I would take 'Lush' away from ASAM and apply it to Warrior. Astounding Sounds - the word I would use is 'Hollow'. I don't mean this perjoratively, but all the instruments sound as though they're circling around the periphery and in the middle is...nothing. (On Quark, you would find Ade Shaw's bubbling basslines and Simon House's excellent keyboard work at the eye of the hurricane -avoided saying 'cyclone' there, Tom! On Space Ritual everything sounds as though it's built around Dave & Lemmy.) Not being an audiophile or conversant with some of the technical terms you used, Doug (RIBAA curve, was it?) I can't explain why I generally prefer the sound of vinyl to CD, but the latter medium often sounds to me like the upper and lower frequencies have been boosted and the middle cut. Well, Astounding sounded like that even when it was on vinyl! Not that I dislike the album - au contraire, I think the *material* is excellent. I wonder if it would be theoretically possible to remix it, as you described your friend Karl doing, and discover the hidden centre of this album? Not that you can 'put back in' what was never there in the first place, of course. Steve --Doug wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------- 'Warrior' - "powerful"; 'Astounding Sounds' - "lush"; 'Quark' - "warm"; 'Hawklords' - "clean"; 'PXR5' - hmmmm ... that one's tough since there's no consistent overall sound to it because of the different sources [studio vs. live vs. demo], the way there is for the other four ... (I'd be very curious to hear if anyone particularly agreed or disagreed with my rough characterization of those four albums.) From iainferguson at AOL.COM Tue Apr 8 12:37:20 2003 From: iainferguson at AOL.COM (Iain Ferguson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:37:20 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues & what about 5.1 surround In-Reply-To: <200304081543.LAA02117@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 8 13:59:31 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:59:31 -0400 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb Message-ID: >and those of use who are using dial-up modems, so effectively paying to get >this list PER WORD are getting hacked off with the reams of pontification on >economics. Take it offlist please? OK. From cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET Tue Apr 8 14:44:56 2003 From: cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET (cosmicdolphin) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:44:56 +0100 Subject: HW: Ozrics Nottingham Message-ID: Are Ozrics Playing at Rock City? The Ozrics website is suggesting that they aren't (well Mike Wernings Ozrics site since their corporate site is now dead ;-) See the link below: http://www.geocities.com/ozrictentacles_web/#Tour Rich W From cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET Tue Apr 8 14:53:32 2003 From: cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET (cosmicdolphin) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:53:32 +0100 Subject: HW: Crows Nest Records Chicago Message-ID: For anyone that happens to be in Chicago: Crows Nest has some nice bits and bobs, there are still a couple of Cleopatra HW Family boxes, for 25 Dollars!! Not bad for 4 CDs. Also they have a couple of copies of Friday Rock Show Sessions CD (Reading Festival 86) which is long dead, and even a copy of the Radio 1 In Concert from 1972 CD. Rich W From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Tue Apr 8 15:05:50 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:05:50 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: <200304081248.h38Cm6sG000273@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 01:48:06PM +0100, M Holmes wrote: => nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: => > Are you suggesting that if people in the UK had to pay for (say) coronary => > artery bypass grafts, then fewer British people would require them? => => Exactly so. If people don't have to pay for healthcare then at the => margin they will be less careful of their health. It's all about incentives. You mean like the incentive of not spending time in a hospital under potentially dangerous surgery, or the incentive of having increased longevity? Aside from Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, do you know of many people who LIKE to spend their time as patients in a hospital? :-) If I had free dental care, I doubt that would make me take less care of my teeth just so I could partake of the dubious pleasure of multiple free root canal procedures... (Remember folks, be true to your teeth or they will be false to you.;) Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." --- Frank Vincent Zappa From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Apr 8 15:23:46 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:23:46 -0400 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:42:36 +0100, dave evans wrote: >"None of which has much to do with buying CD's.. which is sort of my >point." > >and those of use who are using dial-up modems, so effectively paying to get >this list PER WORD are getting hacked off with the reams of pontification >on economics. Take it offlist please? Fair enough. No more 400-line off-topic messages from me for at least a few months, I promise! :^) -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From joe.e at TELIA.COM Tue Apr 8 15:30:55 2003 From: joe.e at TELIA.COM (Johan Edlundh) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:30:55 +0200 Subject: HW: 8Track Cartridge. Message-ID: As I had a few hours free I decided to scan my two Hawkwind 8Track Cartridges, and put the results on a web page. If someone is interested in Hawkwind in outdated format, here's the link: http://www.bktv.se/~a1419a/hw/8tr_main.htm You'll also find a link there to a complete scan of the Glastonbury Fayre album... back in the box, peace and levitation, .joe From starfield at SUPANET.COM Tue Apr 8 14:56:53 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:56:53 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: To my ears, Warrior and Quark were both processed through what sounds like some form of 'energiser' such as an Aphex Aural Exciter; this basically adds top end 'fizz' in the form of low order distortion. Astounding was not, I believe done this way, plus it sounds like the keyboards were recorded direct to the desk rather than the usual practice of miking up the keybard amps. Also the bass playing has a lot to do with it; Rudolph sticking with almost root note playing and very tight timing compared to the more extreme fret board excursions of Lemmy and Shaw. But back to the vinyl versus CD debate for a moment; the reason a lot of early CD reissues sounded so awful was a: because they were taken from the tapes used to master the vinyl; that is to say, the bass was rolled off (to fit it onto the LP groove). b: They used poor quality A-D converters. And Doug touched upon something else in his reply; why so many modern CD's are recorded with a minimal dynamic range compared to the theoretical possibilities of the medium. Shall you tell 'em or shall I? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Youles" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 4:43 PM Subject: Re: HW: EMI Reissues > Oh all right then, I'll bite... > > 'Warm' for Quark and 'Clean' for Hawklords are perfect one-word > characterisations of those albums, although Hawklords could be > considered 'clean' only by HW's standards, I suspect - cf. the muddier tone > of, say, Doremi. (BTW, the single version of 25 Years is far > from 'clean' ; it snarls!) PXR5 is like a box of chocolates with soft- and > hard-centres, dark and light chocolate etc. > > WOTEOT has too much going on for one word to charactise it as successfully, > but if anything I would take 'Lush' away from ASAM and apply it to Warrior. > > Astounding Sounds - the word I would use is 'Hollow'. I don't mean this > perjoratively, but all the instruments sound as though they're circling > around the periphery and in the middle is...nothing. (On Quark, you would > find Ade Shaw's bubbling basslines and Simon House's excellent keyboard > work at the eye of the hurricane -avoided saying 'cyclone' there, Tom! On > Space Ritual everything sounds as though it's built around Dave & Lemmy.) > > Not being an audiophile or conversant with some of the technical terms you > used, Doug (RIBAA curve, was it?) I can't explain why I generally prefer > the sound of vinyl to CD, but the latter medium often sounds to me like the > upper and lower frequencies have been boosted and the middle cut. Well, > Astounding sounded like that even when it was on vinyl! Not that I dislike > the album - au contraire, I think the *material* is excellent. I wonder if > it would be theoretically possible to remix it, as you described your > friend Karl doing, and discover the hidden centre of this album? Not that > you can 'put back in' what was never there in the first place, of course. > > > Steve > > > --Doug wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------- > > 'Warrior' - "powerful"; > 'Astounding Sounds' - "lush"; > 'Quark' - "warm"; > 'Hawklords' - "clean"; > 'PXR5' - hmmmm ... that one's tough since there's no consistent overall > sound to it because of the different sources [studio vs. live vs. demo], > the way there is for the other four ... (I'd be very curious to hear if > anyone particularly agreed or disagreed with my rough characterization of > those four albums.) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 8 15:52:26 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:52:26 +0100 Subject: HW:Out and About In-Reply-To: <012001c2bdbb$ee0a9480$9eebfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Mark Von Bargen wrote: > Browsing in my local shops, I came across the following HW references. > Loaded (UK lads monthly mag) - this month has a feature on the mighty > Tenaious D. Amongst the five rock greats who were major influences on > the might D are Hawkwind!!. Blimey. Can't say as I can hear it... > Finally, saw a CD in the local music store - Wizzards & Demons - a > compilation inspired by the works of JR Tolkein. The final track on > the album is by Sam Gopal - any ideas whether it features Mr > Kilminster. I'd have to go back to get the track title tho' - maybe > tomorrow. I never saw you follow up with this, but almost certainly the answer to your question is yes, because the Sam Gopal album with Lemmy on features a track called `The Dark Lord' which is, without any doubt, about Sauron. If that information still helps after three months, you're welcome to it... Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 8 15:45:49 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:45:49 +0100 Subject: OFF: Re: other bands In-Reply-To: <20030116201705.84224.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Amphetamine Embalmer wrote: > Great thread. Mine, not limiting to 10: > > Kingston Wall (I agree with Scott Heller on this band. > Where is Carl Edlund Anderson when you need him?) A good question. He got married recently, but I saw him more recently still and he does still exist. He will be at the Cambridge Hawkwind gig for those wishing to run into him. While I'm at it, I might as well have at this thread myself, everyone else did... Let's leave aside, well, HW & BOC themselves, and with reluctance their immediate Relations (most reluctantly of all ICU and High Tide and of course Motorhead)... and the obvious things like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple and Pink Fairies and Led Zeppelin and Orange Goblin and Monster Magnet and Ozric Tentacles and Tangerine Dream... if I have to keep it down to ten (probably best I do) I'll pick 'em for variety or simply not being able not to leave them out. That gets you, in no particular order: Jimi Hendrix. Yes, another obvious one but a very very important one. Practically a cornerstone of as much faith as I have. One of the most important sources of beauty in my aural life. Whether Experience, Band of Gypsys or whatever. Clutch. One of the finest bands currently going and one that I've tried evangelising here with no luck many times before. They started as a hardcore band in the American South (first album has a track based on Moorcock's _Behold The Man_) but they have too much wit to stick with that. The singer has a new personality for each song, can do the death-metal cookie-monster style par excellence or out-verbalise Eminem at his sharpest, and occasionally actually sing; the rest of the band also play as a jazz group sometimes. They can play. Especially the drummer who is one of the very few drummers I would happy to see play by himself for my money. And the lyrics contain passing references to nursery rhymes, the Founding Fathers, bits of European geography, Visigoths, elephants, Dodge Swingers, yetis, Tim Leary, Stravinsky... Can I get one person, just one, to look at and discover this band please. Thankyou. Daevid Allen and all his works. Well, I'm still exploring, maybe not all his works, but with particular attention thus far to New York Gong and of course The University of Errors about whom I shall continue to jump up and down on this list and elsewhere. Another fabulous source of words and a very important, almost the only real, source of glissando guitar, both of which things it is of course impossible to live adequately without. Farflung. I was struck to the core when Tommy Grenas said he was folding Farflung. They have been (and may yet be again) the only band that comes close to making the music I would like to make if I had money and time, and in the realm of space there is currently no-one to touch them, as long as you believe that space is dark, murky, populated with occasionally passing very heavy rocks and dusty clouds, and of course analogue not digital. _The Belief Module_ is possibly the best piece of spacerock other than _The Space Ritual_ for my values of what space-rock should be. Goatsnake. Started as a Southern-fried doom band with a stoner leaning and have made the precise crossing point on which they stood their own. The drummer can now drum in the odd time signatures they begin to favour, the singer actually can, they are a fabulously heavy greasy doom thing. And their first album bears on the sleeve a longship with a Confederate flag for a sail sailing up a river along whose bank rides a huge bearded biker with chick a pillion on the now-traditional hog, so, you know it's going to be good before even you open it and discover the legend "Goatsnake use only Gibson guitars and basses and Sabbath riffs because they want the best." The Heads. Mostly feedback and intensity, this Bristol-based four- piece would probably have more of a profile if they ever gigged... On the rare occasions they do they manage that most surprising of feats for a clear bunch of stoners, being ridiculously tight and interconnected. Another fan described their style as "head down and give it plenty", and that's about it, though they're more sixties than seventies given the stoner tag. If you like guitars that make noise, and you'd describe it like that with enthusiasm, you should really check this lot out. Man or Astroman? That same Carl Anderson, after due consideration, termed this lot "space surf". They built their own theramin, pepper their work with B-movie samples, have a guitarist who sounds like Dick Dale and a drummer who makes songs skid when he hits them, and they are Lots of Fun. Examine for further evidence. Steely Dan. Yes, I know, but I refuse to be ashamed. First band I was ever fanatic about, I had all their albums till the swines reformed and made two more. Indulgent, yes, but also brilliantly-drilled and controlled and the highest concentration of bitter irony this side of Mark Antony's speech over Caesar. Porcupine Tree. Well. Once. Once they were the band that first gave me the Idea about psychedelic music (and I'd never have gone and seen them but for Craig Shipley of this list so if he's still around I thank him again), then they had a nasty lush angst-pop commercial break and now... well, they're still unavowedly commercial but you can't say it's affected the quality this time, uncompromising arrangements and hard-hitting protest amid some finally well-tuned sentiment. I might now respect them again but I don't think I'll ever love them as I did. _Up The Donwstair_ remains a breathless example of how space-rock and trance ethics really *should* be fused and there's none of the first four albums I wouldn't recommend to anyone into head music. _In Absentia_ you'll have to make your own mind up about. Queens of the Stone Age. Everything else from the ashes of Kyuss (whom I assumed were too obvious to list separately) has stalled rather, which is a pity given how fabulous John Garcia's voice is, but QotSA go from strength to strength. Another one that's hit the level of being commercial and *good* at the same time, every album hits new highs and freshly raises its lows. Electric Wizard. Now sadly defunct, but for a while making the other side of that music I want to hear, the doom end, with minimalist soundscaping and hatred-dripping vocals over the heaviest sound yet to come out of my speakers. A band you had to endure live rather than enjoy, but one of whom we are unlikely to see the like again. ST37. There are of course other ways to make space-rock and being mad, Texan, heavily influenced by Krautrock and Hawkwind but also by 80s punk and a whole bunch of local weirdo performance poets and artists is this way of doing it. The Texan underground must be a bad place to live but visiting it via these guys' records is a fair old trip by itself. That's ten, isn't it? Oh no, it's twelve. Well, never mind. So I leave aside the little bands by whom I have only one great record, like Lotus, Ten Benson, The Satellite Circle, Wool and The Atomic Bitchwax. I suppose I could own up to a few guilty pleasures too. I still often play the first Elastica album. I cannot force myself to sell my Eagles best of. Or, worse still, a Hall & Oates one. I used to be a fanatic U2 fan, right up until and including _Pop_. Oh well. And The Pretenders were and are fabulous, though I'm not quite sure about some of the points in between. It might also be necessary to put Ten Benson in the guilty pleasures list but nobody has ever heard of them so I'm safe. Yours all, Jon Ob2LP: Warhorse - _As Heaven Turns To Ash_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From chris at HAWKLORD.UKLINUX.NET Tue Apr 8 17:09:28 2003 From: chris at HAWKLORD.UKLINUX.NET (Chris Gibbs) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:09:28 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues & what about 5.1 surround Message-ID: Hi ya, Yup Dark Side of Moon 30th aniversary hybrid sacd sounds GREAT!!! Even sounds great on conventional cd player (better than I remember an earlier cd sounding) So what is an sacd? Can they be copied as sacd? That is are any of the sub-channels used for audio or is the encoding somehow done in the equivalent wav file you get by ripping in the conventional manner? Strange thing is one (pc dvd) player refuses to play this cd One pc dvd player has noticable micro gaps between tracks and cheepie pseudo 5.1 system plays it fine. A copy I made is perfect on everything but is the copy still 5.1? Chris Iain Ferguson wrote: > > Hi, > > Id say that Warrior is cluttered yet obviously trying for a big sound, > was it recorded on a larger multitrack. It seems to me that the band > tried to fill the soundscape with Warrior. It really does need to be > completely remastered if a master exists. I love this record. and a > remix might just enable us to hear exactly what the band were trying > to get to .... > > If any of the Hawkwind master tapes still exist they should be 5.1 > surround dolbied now.( DVDAudio) I've just heard some Greatful dead > and i felt stoned after hearing it straight, Can't wait for a rich > mate to buy a SACD player then i'll listen to the floyd on surround. > > Colin, any chance of some surround sound re-mastering ? > > I see that Gong are upto it at some pointthis year and I cant wait > for that also... > > regards > Iain > > Steve Youles wrote: > > > Oh all right then, I'll bite... > > > > 'Warm' for Quark and 'Clean' for Hawklords are perfect one-word > > characterisations of those albums, although Hawklords could be > > considered 'clean' only by HW's standards, I suspect - cf. the > > muddier tone > > of, say, Doremi. (BTW, the single version of 25 Years is far > > from 'clean' ; it snarls!) PXR5 is like a box of chocolates with > > soft- and > > hard-centres, dark and light chocolate etc. > > > > WOTEOT has too much going on for one word to charactise it as > > successfully, > > but if anything I would take 'Lush' away from ASAM and apply it to > > Warrior. > > > > Astounding Sounds - the word I would use is 'Hollow'. I don't mean > > this > > perjoratively, but all the instruments sound as though they're > > circling > > around the periphery and in the middle is...nothing. (On Quark, you > > would > > find Ade Shaw's bubbling basslines and Simon House's excellent > > keyboard > > work at the eye of the hurricane -avoided saying 'cyclone' there, > > Tom! On > > Space Ritual everything sounds as though it's built around Dave & > > Lemmy.) > > > > Not being an audiophile or conversant with some of the technical > > terms you > > used, Doug (RIBAA curve, was it?) I can't explain why I generally > > prefer > > the sound of vinyl to CD, but the latter medium often sounds to me > > like the > > upper and lower frequencies have been boosted and the middle cut. > > Well, > > Astounding sounded like that even when it was on vinyl! Not that I > > dislike > > the album - au contraire, I think the *material* is excellent. I > > wonder if > > it would be theoretically possible to remix it, as you described > > your > > friend Karl doing, and discover the hidden centre of this album? > > Not that > > you can 'put back in' what was never there in the first place, of > > course. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > --Doug > > wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 'Warrior' - "powerful"; > > 'Astounding Sounds' - "lush"; > > 'Quark' - "warm"; > > 'Hawklords' - "clean"; > > 'PXR5' - hmmmm ... that one's tough since there's no consistent > > overall > > sound to it because of the different sources [studio vs. live vs. > > demo], > > the way there is for the other four ... (I'd be very curious to hear > > if > > anyone particularly agreed or disagreed with my rough > > characterization of > > those four albums.) > > From _jt at COX.NET Tue Apr 8 18:34:03 2003 From: _jt at COX.NET (Jeff Thompson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:34:03 -0500 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues & what about 5.1 surround In-Reply-To: <3E933A88.380462CA@hawklord.uklinux.net> Message-ID: Chris Gibbs wrote: > Hi ya, > > Yup Dark Side of Moon 30th aniversary hybrid sacd sounds GREAT!!! > Even sounds great on conventional cd player (better than I remember an > earlier cd sounding) > > A copy I made is perfect on everything but is the copy still 5.1? A hybrid SACD like DSOTM has two layers - a conventional "cd red book" layer read by cd drives and cd players, and another SACD layer (similar to DVD but not DVD compatible) containing up to 4 gigabytes of data that has all the 5.1 audio data. A SACD player will read from that layer, ignoring the CD layer, while everything else will read from the CD layer ignoring the SACD layer. A computer cd drive won't be able to read the SACD layer, so when you ripped it, you were were ripping the regular stereo CD audio, no 5.1 info. -- Jeff / _jt at cox.net "Float on a river, forever and ever, Emily" From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Tue Apr 8 19:10:02 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:10:02 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: hence my use of the word "supposedly" good Captain - I can't hear any difference - in fact, in arecent comparison between the One Way, Repertoire and EMI reissued CD copies of the first album, I still maintain that the Repertoire one sounds best of the lot. The remastering game is a total minefield with labels all over the place using it as a term for all sorts of spurious reasons - one label even recently put "remastered" sticker on outside of one of itsCD's when all it wasreferring to was that the album had been remastered onto CD compared to the original vinlyl issue - something that has to be done anyway - best of luck people. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Captain Bl at ck" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 6:44 PM Subject: Re: HW: EMI Reissues > "What makes this a gem right now is that all the tracks on > the second disc are from the deleted "Warrior" and Charisma label albums,the > only current way to get them, and supposedly remastered versions too." > > > What exactly does 'remastered' mean, anyway? If you make a digital recording > from a vinyl copy, does that constitute 'remastering'? > > To my mind, a 'remastered' recoding should be taken from the first > generation stereo tapes; that is, the actual ones that were used when the > stereo tracks were mixed down. But I wonder in how many cases the tapes > actually used for 'remastering' are just an earlier generation of a multiple > copy used for pressing vinyl? > > I mean, do the EMI re-issues actually sound like they were taken from the > original stereo masters? > > Thoughtz? From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Tue Apr 8 19:14:06 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:14:06 +0100 Subject: HW: Oscillations Message-ID: Oh yes - it certainly is - now Burning Airlines (Pilot cat number prefixes) have been bought out - so to speak - by Alchemy Entertainment, then it's another case for all the Dave Anderson stuff to be turfed over yet again on a "new" label. Hey ho Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Licht" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:33 AM Subject: HW: Oscillations > Another Dave Anderson re-release?? > > HAWKWIND-OSCILLATIONS $15.95 From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Tue Apr 8 19:16:27 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:16:27 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind DVDs Message-ID: Bil Wood from Taste disappeared years ago, as did the masters he used to release the things. Visionary (formerly Jettisoundz, now Screen Edge) say that eventually all their Hawk videos will see light of day as DVD but no time frame. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Duffy" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Hawkwind DVDs > Hi all > > Here's an idea. How about someone re-releasing the Chronicles of the Black > Sword DVD, with all the other tracks from the Live Chronicles CD included as > audio tracks (presuming there is no more video footage)? > > Also, any chance of someone bringing out another DVD with the clips made for > the Space Bandits & Palace Springs material (I think the company was called > Taste)? > > William From nick at THECOMPLETESHEET.COM Tue Apr 8 23:06:12 2003 From: nick at THECOMPLETESHEET.COM (Nick English) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:06:12 -0500 Subject: on TV in two days! Message-ID: Yes it was on. Love all around to Jason for alerting us to it. I never would have known otherwise. it wasn't a bad show, either, although I would have enjoyed something a little looser and more probing. (--Sexual innuendos, anyone?) VH1 Classic is fast becoming one of my favorite channels. A couple weekends ago they did that Metal Mania weekend with Leslie West. I taped about 18 hours of videos, just in case some classics were in there. I've watched about 1/3 of what I taped so far, and most interesting things I saw were Black Sabbath's "Trashed", which is even more HORRIBLE than I remembered. . . "Stars" by Hear n' Aid, spearheaded by Dio and including Buck and Eric. . . and Spinal Tap's "Majesty of Rock", which I didn't even know they made a video for. And for a certain someone on this list, I also caught TWO Y&T videos. . . Summertime Girls and Lipstick & Leather. Other than that, there was tons of forgettable stuff, like Bon Jovi, Poison, Crue, etc. They also had some pretty heavy stuff like Slayer, Exodus, etc. Also a lot of bands you probably did indeed forget, like Leatherwolf, Kick Axe, Raven (Who were actually pretty good in their day)and the Mama's Boys. --And by the way, did anyone else know that Stryper did a cover of the song "Shining Star"? Makeup-wearing, mousse-haired white boys singing '70s R&B. Whoever came up with that idea should have been shot. Or, since we're talking Stryper, perhaps a good SMITING would suffice.) I haven't come across any Motorhead yet, but I've got 12 more hours to get through. --Nick >Was this actually on last night? > >I went to program my VCR to record it, but my >program guide showed it as >being "The Doors" episode. From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Apr 8 21:30:56 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:30:56 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: Interesting comments on 'Astounding' ... hopefully I'll address both Steve's and Keith's excellent comments on that album in another message ... On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:56:53 +0100, Captain Bl at ck wrote: >But back to the vinyl versus CD debate for a moment; the reason a lot of >early CD reissues sounded so awful was > >a: because they were taken from the tapes used to master the vinyl; that is >to say, the bass was rolled off (to fit it onto the LP groove). There's the explanation of the RIAA eq curve for Steve! The theory is ... it takes more energy to generate bass tones than higher-frequency tones (that's why, for instance, when the guitarist in a band is playing a 100 watt Marshall stack, the bassist needs a 300 watt SVT to remain audible), and on vinyl, the energy of a signal is proportional to the width of the groove. So if you try to put "full energy" bass signals on vinyl, you risk either breaking through the walls of one groove into the next one (which of course makes the record unplayable), or you have huge grooves that cause so much needle motion that skipping starts to become a major problem, even with unscratched records (there are also issues with the transformers in cartridges "clipping" if the bass signals are too strong, but that's more theoretical than the other two concerns). So to prevent this, records are "cut" with the bass rolled off below around 500Hz (IIRC); this then needs to be compensated for at the listener's end (otherwise, there would be no audible bass), so phono preamps typically have an eq curve that boosts signals below 500Hz to restore the bass. Some older LP's actually list the slope and cutoff frequency of the RIAA curve, but I'm not looking at any right at this moment ... However, I was under the impression that the RIAA eq is applied when the vinyl master is cut (between the tape player and the cutting lathe), and not to the actual tape that the master is cut from. But I could certainly be wrong about that ... >b: They used poor quality A-D converters. These days, $100 soundcards have better converters than the ones used in professional studios in the 80's. >And Doug touched upon something else in his reply; why so many modern CD's >are recorded with a minimal dynamic range compared to the theoretical >possibilities of the medium. > >Shall you tell 'em or shall I? Louder sounds "better" (a well-known psychoacoustic phenomenon), and compressed sounds "louder" (because the total energy:peak energy ratio is higher at the same volume level). (And compressed-to-hell, like most modern rock CD's, sounds "like shit", IMHO. But the "right amount" of compression is one of the most important ingredients of a good mastering or remastering job.) -Doug (sorry if I'm getting too off-topic again! feel free to shoot me!) jasret at mindspring.com From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 9 03:39:03 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:39:03 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:43:25 -0400, Steve Youles wrote: >WOTEOT has too much going on for one word to charactise it as successfully, >but if anything I would take 'Lush' away from ASAM and apply it to Warrior. I agree - both those thoughts crossed my mind while I was making the list. But the list was as much a description of what the overall sounds of those albums are, as a description of what a person re-mastering those albums should strive for. ASAM is really the only one on the list which doesn't quite live up to that description in its original form. But the elements are all there - the fx-laden/sax freakout section of "Reefer Madness", the massed brass on "Steppenwolf", the forwards/backwards Gong on side 2, and, of course, Simon House all over everything! You're probably correct that the album should really be remixed, to make it (IMO) more lush, and less clean (clean works fine for the Hawklords album - although you're right that it's still garage rock next to contemporary '78 Steely Dan or Fleetwood Mac!). >Astounding Sounds - the word I would use is 'Hollow'. I don't mean this >perjoratively, but all the instruments sound as though they're circling >around the periphery and in the middle is...nothing. (On Quark, you would >find Ade Shaw's bubbling basslines and Simon House's excellent keyboard >work at the eye of the hurricane -avoided saying 'cyclone' there, Tom! On >Space Ritual everything sounds as though it's built around Dave & Lemmy.) Yeah, that's a good description, and I think that if there was a way to thicken up all those peripheral instruments in the mix (as I said above, they're *there*, they just aren't mixed together right), it would compensate for a lot of that emptiness. >au contraire, I think the *material* is excellent. I wonder if >it would be theoretically possible to remix it, as you described your >friend Karl doing, and discover the hidden centre of this album? Not that >you can 'put back in' what was never there in the first place, of course. Sometimes, even a good remastering job can make a huge improvement in this area. I suspect that it might pose the greatest challenge to whomever remasters those albums (although PXR5 will be the most *work* for them). On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:56:53 +0100, Captain Bl at ck wrote: >To my ears, Warrior and Quark were both processed through what sounds like >some form of 'energiser' such as an Aphex Aural Exciter; this basically >adds top end 'fizz' in the form of low order distortion. I find that those things can sometimes improve individual instrument (or vocal) tracks, usually do improve poor source material (live tapes, bounced- to-hell 4-track mixes, etc.), but are not helpful to high quality source material. >Astounding was not, I believe done this way, I only have the Griffin version. It doesn't sound processed or bass- lacking compared to the vinyl, but it does sound like a standard 90's (much better than an 80's!) digital transfer. >plus it sounds like the keyboards were recorded direct to the desk >rather than the usual practice of miking up the keybard amps. Was this the first album on which Simon House used string synth instead of Mellotron? >Also the bass playing has a lot to do with it; >Rudolph sticking with almost root note playing and very tight timing >compared to the more extreme fret board excursions of Lemmy and Shaw. And the drums somehow sound more spikey and less thumpy than Warrior, even though it's the same two drummers. Probably recorded with more (and different) microphones in more isolation, as was becoming the trend in those days. Pretty amazing difference that one year and one bassist makes. -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 9 03:51:47 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:51:47 -0400 Subject: Arthur Brown Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:07:33 +0100, Jon Jarrett wrote: >On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Doug Pearson wrote: >> During much of the 1980s, Arthur was living in Texas (hmmmm ... like >> Michael Moorcock does), and members of Austin spacerock band ST37 did >> some work with him. > > Anyway, back on topic: is that right, Doug? Which recordings are >they on? Cause you know, that would be *interesting*... I don't think there are any recordings. I'd have to check with Scott (he's on the Yahoo! Hawkwind list), and the connection may be no more than Dave Cameron playing drums for him (as he did for Roky Erickson) ... I'm not sure ... And did anyone mention Arthur doing narration for the Pretty Things' (including, of course, first-Hawkwind-album-producer Dick Taylor) 30th anniversary performance of 'S.F. Sorrow' (also featuring David Gilmour)? -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Wed Apr 9 10:25:44 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:25:44 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Paul Mather's message of Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:05:50 -0400 Message-ID: Paul Mather writes: > On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 01:48:06PM +0100, M Holmes wrote: > >> nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > >> > Are you suggesting that if people in the UK had to pay for (say) > >> > coronary artery bypass grafts, then fewer British people would > >> > require them? > >> Exactly so. If people don't have to pay for healthcare then at the > >> margin they will be less careful of their health. It's all about > >> incentives. > You mean like the incentive of not spending time in a hospital under > potentially dangerous surgery Yep, add paying for it and most people would see it as a further disincentive. > Aside from Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, do you know of > many people who LIKE to spend their time as patients in a hospital? > :-) The homeless? > If I had free dental care, I doubt that would make me take less care > of my teeth just so I could partake of the dubious pleasure of > multiple free root canal procedures... Perhaps not, but you not be the person on the margin. FoFP From beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 9 11:00:59 2003 From: beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Allen) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:00:59 +0100 Subject: OFF: Re: other bands Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Jarrett > > Clutch. One of the finest bands currently going... I'll have to second this. I'm a very recent convert because they're one of the few heavy rock bands going at the moment who actually groove. I find this to be of immense importance. > Queens of the Stone Age. Everything else from the ashes of Kyuss > (whom I assumed were too obvious to list separately) has stalled rather, > which is a pity given how fabulous John Garcia's voice is, but QotSA go > from strength to strength. Another one that's hit the level of being > commercial and *good* at the same time, every album hits new highs and > freshly raises its lows. Apparently John Garcia is working as a Dental Assistant at the minute. Funny old world. What about The Masters of Reality, Kyuss/QotSA producer Chris Goss' band? I bought their 1st LP when it was released and have loved it ever since - 1999's Welcome to the Western Lodge was also fanastic. The other two studio albums disappointed me a little - maybe the live CDs will be better. From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Wed Apr 9 11:19:31 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:19:31 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: <200304091425.h39EPiIU004883@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 03:25:44PM +0100, M Holmes wrote: => Paul Mather writes: => > If I had free dental care, I doubt that would make me take less care => > of my teeth just so I could partake of the dubious pleasure of => > multiple free root canal procedures... => => Perhaps not, but you not be the person on the margin. So, is a "person on the margin" in this case someone who cannot (or will not) foresee the long-term result of his or her action (or inaction)? If so, it would seem that across the board here in the US that the margin is becoming a majority, or at least not taking responsibility for your own actions (perhaps blaming someone else when the consequences come home to roost) has become something of a boom industry... ;-) Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "Stupidity, not hydrogen, is the most plentiful element in the universe." --- Frank Vincent Zappa From mcintyre at PA.MSU.EDU Wed Apr 9 13:22:40 2003 From: mcintyre at PA.MSU.EDU (John McIntyre) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:22:40 -0400 Subject: OFF: Adventures in "H Misc" Message-ID: Eric Siegerman wrote: > So ... can anyone comment on the Keef Hartley Band's "Battle of > North West Six"? Excellent jazz-rock. My favorite of Hartley's albums. John McIntyre Physics - Astronomy Domine Dept Michigan State University mcintyre at pa.msu.edu From andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG Wed Apr 9 13:30:55 2003 From: andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG (Andrew Apold) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:30:55 -0400 Subject: OFF: Re: other bands Message-ID: > > Clutch. One of the finest bands currently going... > > I'll have to second this. I'm a very recent convert because they're one of > the few heavy rock bands going at the moment who actually groove. I find > this to be of immense importance. Count me in as another fan of Clutch. I don't really seek their stuff out but when I stumble across it I'll usually grab it.... From starfield at SUPANET.COM Wed Apr 9 13:36:26 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:36:26 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: > > Was this (Astounding) the first album on which Simon House used string synth instead of > Mellotron? > No, the mellotron's right in there on Chronoglide Skyway. They started using the Logan String Ensemble on Quark. But I have a funny feeling Simon used the studio's Minimoog rather than the usual Korg 700...check out the pitch bends on Honky Dorky. From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Wed Apr 9 14:03:26 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:03:26 +0100 Subject: HW/NIK: Question for Messrs Anderson & Turner In-Reply-To: <3E282558.E99CA360@cinesite.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Keith Barton wrote: > Just been reading at the Nik interview on www.starfarer.net > > Nik says: > > "The only album which I have had any thing to do was 'Bring Me The Head > Of Yuri Gargarin' on Demi Monde [Dave Anderson's label]." > > and Dave Anderson is playing bass with spaceritual.net > > Perhaps somebody, if they get the opportunity, can ask them at the shows > why the market is being saturated with the same product & who's getting > the royalties from these releases? That's really quite interesting, and the possibilities are, well, at least twofold. The Starfarer page's list of the Bring Me The Head of Dave Anderson albums says _Yuri_ first emerged 1985 on Demi Monde. As did, of course, ICU's _New Anatomy_, featuring Nik and Dave Anderson among others. So OK there's no mystery about how the tapes got to Dave Anderson, though more about why he owns them and not Nik, perhaps Nik didn't have his business head on that day. I'd love to know, however, whether _Yuri_ came out before or after Dave Anderson released the ICU album without paying any of the rest of the group after they'd fired him as bass player. That might illuminate whether or not it's likely that Nik got anything or gets anything from these sales. My guess is that he sold the tapes clean and free then and Dave Anderson doesn't have to pay him anything, and screwed him as much as the rest of ICU if not more so, but my guess is also that Nik doesn't care enough to let it matter and probably doesn't mind what happens to Hawkwind's market profile. The alternative is that Nik is also the villain of the piece, in which case he should be richer than he appears to be... Either way, again, it's a live recording not owned by the band, and there are therefore no royalties to be paid. That might be wrong but it is legal. The money comes from licensing the use of the tapes, or as it presumably now is, the masters. I suppose it's possible Nik was paid for the first but not the second? Thoughts, anyway, yours, Jon ObCD: Scorched Earth - _Fed To Your Head_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 9 14:59:36 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:59:36 -0400 Subject: HW/NIK: Question for Messrs Anderson & Turner Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:03:26 +0100, Jon Jarrett wrote: > Either way, again, it's a live recording not owned by the >band, and there are therefore no royalties to be paid. Yes, and no. There would still be royalties paid on the songwriting/publishing. Which means that, presumably, Dave Brock is still making more money off of these than anyone except Dave A (and the owners of EMI publishing). So it's only the non-writers (Del & Dik, Simon King, and Lemmy [who, of course, doesn't need the money relative to the others]) who can legitimately complain about getting screwed financially. The one shady bit that I just noticed on my Decal/Charly 'Yuri Gagarin' CD is that the non-EMI tracks which are Calvert poems ("In The Egg", "Wage War") are credited to Nik, and not Bob. Although one can easily argue that if it had the correct songwriting credits, it wouldn't be a real Hawkwind live album! -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 9 15:58:44 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:58:44 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:36:26 +0100, Captain Bl at ck wrote: >> Was this (Astounding) the first album on which Simon House used string >> synth instead of Mellotron? > >No, the mellotron's right in there on Chronoglide Skyway. Yes, you're right, that's unquestionably Mellotron. What about "City Of Lagoons", though? That sounds too thin to be a Mellotron, and seems to have the kind of chorus effect generally associated with string ensemble- type keyboards. (And just to run through the keyboard sounds on rest of the album while thinking aloud ... "Reefer Madness" - piano & probably minimoog, "Steppenwolf" - Hammond? organ, "Kerb Crawler" - just 700?, "Kadu Flyer" - piano, organ & 700, "Aubergine" - just synths ... nope, no more string sounds.) >They started using the Logan String Ensemble on Quark. Ah! Thanks for the make of that one. >But I have a funny feeling Simon used the studio's Minimoog rather than the >usual Korg 700...check out the pitch bends on Honky Dorky. As well as the mod wheel action, IIRC. I always thought the synth solo on "Reefer Madness" (same song, right?) was too (sorry!) "phat" to be anything but a Minimoog. -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Apr 9 16:23:22 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:23:22 +0100 Subject: HW/NIK: Question for Messrs Anderson & Turner Message-ID: Dave Brock has never received any royalties for Yuri or any of the other Dave Anderson releases. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Pearson" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 7:59 PM Subject: Re: HW/NIK: Question for Messrs Anderson & Turner > On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:03:26 +0100, Jon Jarrett > wrote: > > Either way, again, it's a live recording not owned by the > >band, and there are therefore no royalties to be paid. > > Yes, and no. There would still be royalties paid on the > songwriting/publishing. Which means that, presumably, Dave Brock is still > making more money off of these than anyone except Dave A (and the owners of > EMI publishing). So it's only the non-writers (Del & Dik, Simon King, and > Lemmy [who, of course, doesn't need the money relative to the others]) who > can legitimately complain about getting screwed financially. > > The one shady bit that I just noticed on my Decal/Charly 'Yuri Gagarin' CD > is that the non-EMI tracks which are Calvert poems ("In The Egg", "Wage > War") are credited to Nik, and not Bob. Although one can easily argue that > if it had the correct songwriting credits, it wouldn't be a real Hawkwind > live album! > > -Doug > jasret at mindspring.com > From stemfors at PIPELINE.COM Wed Apr 9 16:43:50 2003 From: stemfors at PIPELINE.COM (Yuri Eggarin) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:43:50 -0400 Subject: HW/NIK: Question for Messrs Anderson & Turner Message-ID: Doug Pearson wrote: > The one shady bit that I just noticed on my Decal/Charly 'Yuri Gagarin' > CD is that the non-EMI tracks which are Calvert poems ("In The Egg", > "Wage War") are credited to Nik, and not Bob. Although one can easily > argue that if it had the correct songwriting credits, it wouldn't be a > real Hawkwind live album! Interesting bit of info from http://aural-innovations.com/issues/issue18/10_fix.html ... "In The Egg" is a poem by G?nter Grass, translated by Michael Hamburger (German text in "Gleisdreick", Hermann Luchterhand Verlag GunBH, 1960), the translation published in Grass "Selected Poems", Seckerd Warburg, 1966, and reprinted in two SF anthologies edited by Judith Merrill ("SF 12", 1968, USA, and "The Best Of Sci-Fi 12", Mayflower 1970) ... Stephan From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 9 16:49:20 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:49:20 -0400 Subject: HW/NIK: Question for Messrs Anderson & Turner Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:23:22 +0100, Colin J Allen wrote: >Dave Brock has never received any royalties for Yuri or any of the other >Dave Anderson releases. Interesting ... so that would have to mean either: A) Songwriting/publishing royalties have not been paid to EMI music by Demi Monde or any of the other companies Dave Anderson licensed the recordings to. OR B) Anderson & co. (labels, etc.) *have* paid songwriting/publishing royalties to EMI music (presumably not directly, but through some performers' rights society) for the songs on Yuri, SR2 & Text of Festival, but EMI doesn't have to share any of those royalties with the actual songwriters for presumably some arcane contractual reason (which might explain a thing or two ... ). If A is the case, that would represent a rather unusual attitude towards copyright violation for a major publishing company. While B would be (IMO) more indicative of the expected behavior of a major publishing company. -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From Hawkwind at ATTBI.COM Wed Apr 9 17:32:32 2003 From: Hawkwind at ATTBI.COM (DRider) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:32 -0400 Subject: Off: Today In History Message-ID: 1969 - King Crimson has its debut performance at the Speakeasy in London. From jguizar at STNY.RR.COM Wed Apr 9 18:02:18 2003 From: jguizar at STNY.RR.COM (Jerry Guizar) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:02:18 -0400 Subject: Digital Guitar In-Reply-To: <079201c2fedf$88116a40$e7428118@se1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: Check out labs.gibson.com , are any of the musicians here planning on buying one when they come out? Jerry From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Wed Apr 9 14:18:55 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:18:55 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Paul Mather's message of Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:19:31 -0400 Message-ID: Paul Mather writes: > On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 03:25:44PM +0100, M Holmes wrote: > >> Paul Mather writes: > >> > If I had free dental care, I doubt that would make me take less > >> > care of my teeth just so I could partake of the dubious pleasure > >> > of multiple free root canal procedures... > >> Perhaps not, but you not be the person on the margin. > So, is a "person on the margin" in this case someone who cannot (or > will not) foresee the long-term result of his or her action (or > inaction)? To the contrary, they're someone who can. If someone goes from expensive to free dental care then the amount of time they should spend cleaning their teeth to maximise economic efficiency will go down. Unless someone finds cleaning their teeth pleasurable then the only reason to do it is to save themselves time spent ill, and money spent repairing them. The value of the repairs and time and some calculation of probabilities dictates how much time it's worth spending cleaning your teeth each day (though I doubt many of us get it precisely right). If the penalty goes down then the time it's sensible to spend on it also goes down. > If so, it would seem that across the board here in the US > that the margin is becoming a majority, or at least not taking > responsibility for your own actions (perhaps blaming someone else when > the consequences come home to roost) has become something of a boom > industry... ;-) Sadly that's true here too. I wonder how much of it is down to people who would otherwise be adults expecting the government to act as parents and make their decisions (such as how much to spend on healthcare?) for them. FoFP From Ilovemylife801 at AOL.COM Wed Apr 9 22:43:00 2003 From: Ilovemylife801 at AOL.COM (Dale K. Ford) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:43:00 EDT Subject: Off: Today In History Message-ID: Thanks for the trivia, I just put on In The Court of the Crimson King. I haven't heard this in years. Sounds like i'm on a Crimson kick for awhile. The Rundgren shows are this weekend!!!!! I am a happy Dale. From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Apr 10 02:52:35 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:52:35 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:58:44 -0400, I wrote: > >On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:36:26 +0100, Captain Bl at ck >wrote: >>No, the mellotron's right in there on Chronoglide Skyway. > >Yes, you're right, that's unquestionably Mellotron. What about "City Of >Lagoons", though? That sounds too thin to be a Mellotron, and seems to >have the kind of chorus effect generally associated with string ensemble- >type keyboards. I take that back. On second listen, it sounds more like mellotron through phaser (the comb filtering yielding a slightly thinner sound). -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From achad13 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 10 05:02:33 2003 From: achad13 at HOTMAIL.COM (dave evans) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:02:33 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - consumer economics Message-ID: second request: would you PLEASE take the economic waffle offlist- those of us using dialup modems are effectively paying for your outpourings BY THE GODDAM WORD; and that IS relevant economics dave From haarp at REDJELLYFISH.NET Thu Apr 10 06:56:06 2003 From: haarp at REDJELLYFISH.NET (B. Vaughan) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 03:56:06 -0700 Subject: How I Found Out About Hawkwind. Message-ID: I don't think I ever did a post on this anywhere yet..... I was turned on to Hawkwind by a D.J. (didn't know him personally, just listened to his show) who worked at a Sacramento, Calif. radio station called KZAP 98.5fm in the '70[s], his air name was "Gordo". This was in spring 1978, & the tunes I heard first were "Hassan I Sabah" & "Spirit Of The Age", then "Damnation Alley" got some airplay. After hearing the tunes & what Gordo had to say about Hawkwind, I went down the street to Tower Records & bought "Quark, Strangeness & Charm" just as soon as I could. About a month later, I was at a party & heard this incredibly heavy psychedelic album on the turntable there, it was none other than "Doremifasolatido"! "Brainstorm" was the first song I heard from that one. Too bad there aren't more D.J.[s] like Gordo around these days! What was great about that particular time was that KZAP was a commercial station, but had lots of more trippy, experimental music at night (they retained a bit of their "free-form" touch from the early '70[s]). Cheers, Brian http://haarp.freeyellow.com/ From alastair_sumner at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 10 07:32:21 2003 From: alastair_sumner at HOTMAIL.COM (Alastair Sumner) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:32:21 -0400 Subject: OFF: Re: other bands Message-ID: I just want to give some praise to the electronica and techno music that I have listened to on and off (I'm currently 'on' again) since 1992. Namely the Aphex Twin, especially the early R&S stuff, and Squarepusher. Also the countless tracks that my friends and I used to listen to on an Amsterdam pirate radio station of old-style euro-techno. It was hard, dark, acidic and electronic, completely different from the crappy piano rave music played in UK clubs in the early 90s. From neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM Thu Apr 10 09:15:43 2003 From: neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM (Neil Shilladay) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:15:43 +0100 Subject: BOC: The Back to Black Collection Message-ID: Just picked up T&M plus ST as a double remastered CD. The title was 'The Back to Black Collection', and it is a very nice looking package. CDs come in a hard back book style cover 26 pages detailing early history of the band, plus photos and full lyrics. Also get Cities on flame and Stairway to the Stars as bonus tracks. All in all, not bad for ?12. Has anyone else seen this item ? (it is put out by a label called Axe Killer) Cheers Neil. Any views or opinions presented in this Email message are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Microlise Group unless otherwise specifically stated. Email communications are not necessarily secure and therefore the Microlise Group does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, please notify Microlise immediately. Microlise Group Limited +44 (0)1773 537000 From neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM Thu Apr 10 09:21:32 2003 From: neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM (Neil Shilladay) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:21:32 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: I just saw Hawkwind Family Tree CD. Can anyone tell me if it worth picking up ? Seemed to include a few Dave solo efforts, one or two Ron Tree tracks, plus some Jerry Richards band. I was tempted, but feeling guilty at the amount of CDs I've bought this month. Cheers Neil. Any views or opinions presented in this Email message are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Microlise Group unless otherwise specifically stated. Email communications are not necessarily secure and therefore the Microlise Group does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, please notify Microlise immediately. Microlise Group Limited +44 (0)1773 537000 From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Apr 10 09:01:51 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55017) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:01:51 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - consumer economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WelI I found these posts of great interest, especially the medical ones. They were sent as OFF: so what's the problem? They would take less than a second to load on a 56k modem. On Thursday 10 Apr 2003 10:02 am, you wrote: > second request: would you PLEASE take the economic waffle offlist- those of > us using dialup modems are effectively paying for your outpourings BY THE > GODDAM WORD; and that IS relevant economics > > dave From xl5 at IINET.NET.AU Thu Apr 10 10:14:02 2003 From: xl5 at IINET.NET.AU (William Duffy) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:14:02 +0800 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: People may have different views on this CD, but I think it's worth getting your hands on. William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Shilladay" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: HW: Family Tree > I just saw Hawkwind Family Tree CD. > Can anyone tell me if it worth picking up ? > Seemed to include a few Dave solo efforts, one or two Ron Tree tracks, > plus some Jerry Richards band. > I was tempted, but feeling guilty at the amount of CDs I've bought this > month. > > Cheers > Neil. > > Any views or opinions presented in this Email message are solely those of > the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Microlise Group > unless otherwise specifically stated. > Email communications are not necessarily secure and therefore the Microlise > Group does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this > message. > > If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in > error, please notify Microlise immediately. > > Microlise Group Limited +44 (0)1773 537000 > > From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Thu Apr 10 10:25:52 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:25:52 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: <200304091818.h39IItWK007796@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 07:18:55PM +0100, M Holmes wrote: => To the contrary, they're someone who can. If someone goes from expensive => to free dental care then the amount of time they should spend cleaning => their teeth to maximise economic efficiency will go down. No it shouldn't. If, by your theory, economics is about choices, and his or her choice is to have "healthy teeth," then the amount of cleaning should remain the same, independent of the cost of dental care. In other words, if the choice is to "avoid the pain of going to the dentist because I don't like pain," then the means to achieve that choice through regular brushing is the same, no matter if dental surgery is free or an arm and a leg (or at least a molar:). Perhaps, though, that you're suggesting that the monetary cost of dental surgery is the greatest factor in whether someone takes care of their teeth? Perhaps you are right, but that has not been my own personal experience of people I know. Your mileage may vary. => Unless someone finds cleaning their teeth pleasurable then the only => reason to do it is to save themselves time spent ill, and money spent => repairing them. Another reason is that you've become habituated to the act of cleaning your teeth to the point it has become a brain pattern so ingrained that it is hard consciously to break it. A lot of human action is governed by background and habit, often to the point that it is hard to shake a habit even when you logically know it's in your best interest to do so. The point at which we can say our actions are "conscious decisions" is moot, as many are the product of temporal reinforcement. The extent to which the brain seeks patterns cannot be underestimated, and patterns are linked stronly to temporal repetition. Of course, I'm sure there are some people, somewhere, who can decide absolutely logically on everything they do. I know that *I* am not one of those people. :-) => Sadly that's true here too. I wonder how much of it is down to people => who would otherwise be adults expecting the government to act as parents => and make their decisions (such as how much to spend on healthcare?) for them. Going by the ads of the local ambulance-chasing lawyers, I'd say it appears more down to a lottery mentality. ("We fight for YOU to get the MONEY you DESERVE! You don't pay us ANYTHING unless we WIN!!") The targets generally depicted (government disability claims; trucking firms; insurance companies; nursing homes) also indicate a promotion of an "us vs. THEM" mentality that ignores the general relatedness of all things. (Ever stopped to wonder why your doctor's malpractice insurance just went up?) The targets are depicted as cruel faceless entities with deep pockets, and you should have a slice of that pie because it's your right (and it's easy; the lawyer will even come visit you in your home). (The word "rights" is bandied about a lot in these ads.) Sadly, this muddies the waters for those cases where real abuses and neglect takes place. I'm not sure I would characterise it as people thinking the government should act as parents, more a case of "it wasn't my fault, it was theirs (even though I acted stupidly; THEY should have anticipated that and protected me)" with "them" being whoever did them harm (or failed to prevent them harming themselves). At least where I live in rural SW Virginia, the prevalent mood is against more government regulation. It may be different elsewhere. I guess lobbying for legislation is an effective way for those affected to prevent "a similar tragedy" befalling others. It's a convenient big stick. Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." --- Frank Vincent Zappa From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Apr 10 11:50:55 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:50:55 +0100 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) In-Reply-To: Paul Mather's message of Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:25:52 -0400 Message-ID: Paul Mather writes: > On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 07:18:55PM +0100, M Holmes wrote: > > => To the contrary, they're someone who can. If someone goes from expensive > => to free dental care then the amount of time they should spend cleaning > => their teeth to maximise economic efficiency will go down. > > No it shouldn't. If, by your theory, economics is about choices, and > his or her choice is to have "healthy teeth," then the amount of > cleaning should remain the same, independent of the cost of dental > care. If that's their only choice, yes. Most people count saving money as a choice too though some may have so much that this isn't a factor. > Perhaps, though, that you're suggesting that the monetary cost of > dental surgery is the greatest factor in whether someone takes care of > their teeth? Nope, just another factor. Pain is a cost. Money that has to go to the dentist instead of beer is a further cost. Most people try to maximise jollies and minimise costs. > I'm not sure I would characterise it as people thinking the government > should act as parents, more a case of "it wasn't my fault, it was > theirs (even though I acted stupidly; THEY should have anticipated > that and protected me) Sounds like infantilitism to me. FoFP From stemfors at PIPELINE.COM Thu Apr 10 12:53:40 2003 From: stemfors at PIPELINE.COM (Stephan Forstner) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:53:40 -0400 Subject: OFF: consumer economics (was: Hawkwind MP3's) Message-ID: >> I'm not sure I would characterise it as people thinking the >> government should act as parents, more a case of "it wasn't >> my fault, it was theirs (even though I acted stupidly; THEY >> should have anticipated that and protected me) > >Sounds like infantilitism to me. Sounds like greed to me. Stephan From StevePXR5 at AOL.COM Thu Apr 10 13:09:58 2003 From: StevePXR5 at AOL.COM (Steve Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:09:58 EDT Subject: Hawkwind DVDs Message-ID: In a message dated 08/04/03 07:39:23 GMT Daylight Time, xl5 at IINET.NET.AU writes: > Also, any chance of someone bringing out another DVD with the clips made for > the Space Bandits & Palace Springs material (I think the company was called > Taste)? > What about Space Ritual? Was it filmed? Crying shame if not. I'd love to see something from that era. Steve. From StevePXR5 at AOL.COM Thu Apr 10 13:15:52 2003 From: StevePXR5 at AOL.COM (Steve Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:15:52 EDT Subject: Hawkfest... Message-ID: Is there any more news as to where the Hawkfest s to be held? I must admit to beng in a state of panic, and feeling dizzy and nauseous when news first broke that it was to be held in the cesspit of the universe (Blackpool) but now it emerges that it is to be held *near* to blackpool, which suits me. The further the better! Also can a passport holder be accompanied by someone who isn't. I am a holder, but my better half isn't. Cheers, Steve. From starfield at SUPANET.COM Thu Apr 10 13:25:34 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:25:34 +0100 Subject: Hawkfest... Message-ID: It is likely to be held at a site a couple of miles from Blackpool in August. dates on Mission Control. A passport holder can apply for visa tickets for non-passport holder friends. Again, see MC. Captain Bl at ck. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: Hawkfest... > Is there any more news as to where the Hawkfest s to be held? > I must admit to beng in a state of panic, and feeling dizzy and nauseous when > news first broke that it was to be held in the cesspit of the universe > (Blackpool) but now it emerges that it is to be held *near* to blackpool, > which suits me. The further the better! > > Also can a passport holder be accompanied by someone who isn't. I am a > holder, but my better half isn't. > > Cheers, > Steve. From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Apr 10 13:38:03 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:38:03 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree In-Reply-To: <1e7101c2ff6b$75950840$0a01a8c0@xl5> Message-ID: Includes a stunning version of Motorway City that is worth the price alone IMHO, although I'm not so keen on the rest of it... AL --- William Duffy wrote: > People may have different views on this CD, but I think it's worth > getting > your hands on. > > William > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Neil Shilladay" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:21 PM > Subject: HW: Family Tree > > > > I just saw Hawkwind Family Tree CD. > > Can anyone tell me if it worth picking up ? > > Seemed to include a few Dave solo efforts, one or two Ron Tree > tracks, > > plus some Jerry Richards band. > > I was tempted, but feeling guilty at the amount of CDs I've bought > this > > month. > > > > Cheers > > Neil. __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From js3619 at ACMENET.NET Thu Apr 10 16:54:52 2003 From: js3619 at ACMENET.NET (Bolts of Ungodly Vision) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:54:52 -0400 Subject: BOC: repeat of VH-1 show Message-ID: The show premieres Monday, April 7 and will be rebroadcast April 11. Click here for the broadcast schedule for this show. http://www.vh1.com/channels/vh1_classic/channel.jhtml From hw at CY-B.ORG Thu Apr 10 18:28:46 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:28:46 -0400 Subject: HW: HAWKFEST TICKETS ON SALE NOW ! Message-ID: + ++ +STAR WARRIORS ;+ +; ; ; HAWKFEST 2003 TICKETS NOW ON SALE: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/gigs/NwHf/tx.htm We are arranging our second three day long PRIVATE festival, this time to be held in the North-West of England over the weekend of 8th/9th/10th Aug. 2003. As per last year, the event is only going to be open to the holders of HAWKWIND PASSPORTS. The weekend is once again intended to be as family-friendly as possible, with many HW related bands, side attractions and workshops, creating a private 'Hawkwind mini-festival' which should have something for absolutely everyone. The location is near Garstang / Preston / Blackpool. Full details of the lineup and location will be released on Mission Control as things are confirmed. TICKET SALES: At present, tickets are available for PASSPORT HOLDERS ONLY for this private gig. A (UK) chequing facility will be announced on Mission Control in a few days. ALL TICKETS ARE ?50 (+?3.00 HANDLING FEE for credit card bookings ) FOR THE FULL 3 DAYS. PLEASE NOTE: Any orders sent that DO NOT include a VALID HAWKWIND PASSPORT NUMBER will be canceled immediately and an administration fee will be charged. OTHER CONDITIONS APPLY- SEE OUR WEBPAGE FOR FULL DETAILS + + + MESSAGE ENDS + ++ + www.hawkwind.com From kg at THING.DE Thu Apr 10 19:50:33 2003 From: kg at THING.DE (kgerwers) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:50:33 +0200 Subject: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: hi everybody - another call for help from any of you native speakers/listeners out there... I am actually working on a flash-version of DEATH TRAP - but some words might be just not quite right - at least when I compare the lyrics I have in front of me with the actual studio-recording. could some friendly soul out there clear this up? I am pasting in the lyrics I got - but some lines definitely differ from the actual recordings...the odd word here and there might just be daftly wrong... thanks for help, as always.... knut here are the lyrics: In the back of my neck I can feel a strange sensation Feels like I'm heading for the crisis of all creation Only those with death wish understand my situation Feels like Jesus Christ heading for the Stations In my death trap, death trap Running in my death trap, death trap Chicken running in my death trap, death trap Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction While I hold a wheel of fate, smell of burning friction I feel like a hero heading for extinction DEATH TRAP In the back of my neck I can feel a strange sensation Feels like I'm heading for the crisis of all creation Only those with death wish understand my situation Feels like Jesus Christ heading for the Stations In my death trap, death trap Running in my death trap, death trap Chicken running in my death trap, death trap Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction While I hold a wheel of fate, smell of burning friction I feel like a hero heading for extinction In my death trap, death trap Running in my death trap, death trap Chicken running in my death trap, death trap It's the smell of burning plastic (??? is it "smell"????) Monkey on elastic, going up and down Crank shaft cracking up Oil pressure going down Brake drums blowing out Tires on fire now Differential (or: Detrimental??) seize up, oil blast cam shaft Worn out pistons rings, brake fade, brake fade hydraulic leak out, radiator overheat Monkey on elastic, going up and down Smell of burning plastic, It's the smell of burning plastic, Monkey on elastic, going up and down In my death trap, death trap Running in my death trap, death trap Chicken running in my death trap, death trap death trap, death trap .... DEATH-WISH From hw at CY-B.ORG Thu Apr 10 20:04:09 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:04:09 -0400 Subject: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: MISSION CONTROL: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/lyr/dt.htm *sigh* On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:50:33 +0200, kgerwers wrote: >hi everybody - >another call for help from any of you native speakers/listeners out there... >I am actually working on a flash-version of DEATH TRAP - but >some words might be just not quite right - at least when I compare >the lyrics I have in front of me with the actual studio-recording. >could some friendly soul out there clear this up? > >I am pasting in the lyrics I got - but some lines definitely differ from the >actual recordings...the odd word here and there might just be daftly wrong... >thanks for help, as always.... >knut > >here are the lyrics: > >In the back of my neck I can feel a strange sensation >Feels like I'm heading for the crisis of all creation >Only those with death wish understand my situation >Feels like Jesus Christ heading for the Stations >In my death trap, death trap >Running in my death trap, death trap >Chicken running in my death trap, death trap >Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion >Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction >While I hold a wheel of fate, smell of burning friction >I feel like a hero heading for extinction > >DEATH TRAP > >In the back of my neck I can feel a strange sensation >Feels like I'm heading for the crisis of all creation >Only those with death wish understand my situation >Feels like Jesus Christ heading for the Stations > >In my death trap, death trap >Running in my death trap, death trap >Chicken running in my death trap, death trap > >Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion >Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction >While I hold a wheel of fate, smell of burning friction >I feel like a hero heading for extinction > >In my death trap, death trap >Running in my death trap, death trap >Chicken running in my death trap, death trap >It's the smell of burning plastic (??? is it "smell"????) >Monkey on elastic, going up and down >Crank shaft cracking up >Oil pressure going down >Brake drums blowing out >Tires on fire now >Differential (or: Detrimental??) seize up, oil blast cam shaft >Worn out pistons rings, brake fade, brake fade >hydraulic leak out, radiator overheat >Monkey on elastic, going up and down >Smell of burning plastic, >It's the smell of burning plastic, >Monkey on elastic, going up and down > >In my death trap, death trap >Running in my death trap, death trap >Chicken running in my death trap, death trap >death trap, death trap .... >DEATH-WISH From JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM Thu Apr 10 20:34:42 2003 From: JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM (Joe Loehr) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:34:42 EDT Subject: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: In a message dated 4/10/2003 7:04:37 PM US Eastern Standard Time, hw at CY-B.ORG writes: > MISSION CONTROL: > > http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/lyr/dt.htm > > Hold that sigh, pardner! Just had a listen to my CD of P.X.R. 5, and the "Official" lyrics don't jibe with the song. Fer examples: site says:"Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion"; song says "Cruising for the crossroads . . ." Site says: "While I hold the wheel of Fate. . ."; sounds to me Calvert sings: "One hand on the wheel of Fate. . ." I don't even want to think of digging out all the other versions to see what they say! Maybe the lyrics changed between the writing and the recording of the song? Joe PS I'm not pissing about the Official Site, either! I like it! From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Apr 10 20:59:03 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:59:03 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:34:42 EDT, Joe Loehr wrote: >Just had a listen to my CD of P.X.R. 5, and the "Official" lyrics don't >jibe with the song. > >Fer examples: site says:"Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion"; >song says "Cruising for the crossroads . . ." >Site says: "While I hold the wheel of Fate. . ."; >sounds to me Calvert sings: >"One hand on the wheel of Fate. . ." > >I don't even want to think of digging out all the other versions to see >what they say! Yeah, there are other differences ... on one version (I think the Sonic Assassins one), Bob adds the lyrics "... of the cross" and "... that would be your loss" (I think, I'm not at the stereo right now) after the lines "feel like Jesus Christ heading for the stations" and "feel like a hero heading for extinction". >Maybe the lyrics changed between the writing and the recording of the song? I get the impression that a lot of Bob's lyrics started as (relatively) free-form improvisations, and were only finalized when the band went into the studio to record them. It's pretty obvious that the lyrics to "Uncle Sam's On Mars" and "Hassan i Sahba" had not been finalized for the fall '76 tour released on the 'Atomhenge 76' set. >PS I'm not pissing about the Official Site, either! I like it! Pointing out the occasional omission ("Back on the Streets", to name one) or inaccuracy definitely isn't slagging on the site. I'm mighty glad that the lyrics are there, even if they're not quite *all* there ... -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From jswartz at MITRE.ORG Fri Apr 11 08:44:01 2003 From: jswartz at MITRE.ORG (John A. Swartz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:44:01 -0400 Subject: The Back to Black Collection Message-ID: > > Just picked up T&M plus ST as a double remastered CD. > The title was 'The Back to Black Collection', and it is a very nice > looking package. CDs come in a hard back book style cover 26 pages > detailing early history of the band, plus photos and full lyrics. Also get > Cities on flame and Stairway to the Stars as bonus tracks. > All in all, not bad for ?12. > > Has anyone else seen this item ? (it is put out by a label called Axe > Killer) > I've got a copy of this. It is a nice packaging, although the "bonus tracks" are rather strange - why didn't they just package the first *3* albums together if they were going to include "Cities..." and "Stairway..." from the first album? Also, the folks that did this (unintentionally?) ripped off the official website for their liner notes. Look at the band history section of www.blueoystercult.com and you will find the source of the liner notes. Still, a nice package. But, since Sony soon after came out with remasters of the first 3 albums, I no longer find the (sonic) need for this and may put it up on Ebay in the near future (unless anyone here wants to make me a decent offer for it). John From chris at HAWKLORD.UKLINUX.NET Fri Apr 11 16:00:05 2003 From: chris at HAWKLORD.UKLINUX.NET (Chris Gibbs) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:00:05 +0100 Subject: FZ : City Of Tiny Lights Weed Message-ID: Hi ya Frank Zappa "City of Tiny Lights" video offer:- Last night the BBC screwed up the beginning and end of this GREAT animation. This leaves over 5 minuites that are unspoilt. Its recorded with 48k audio and is PAL MPEG ready to go on DVD, but I put it on CDR instead. First three interested (at least 2 of which should re-offer the weed) can have it. Chris From hw at CY-B.ORG Fri Apr 11 19:18:45 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:18:45 -0400 Subject: HW: Bedouin London Date ! Message-ID: BEDOUIN PLAY LONDON !! Saturday April 19th Standard Music Venue Blackhorse Lane Walthamstow LONDON (The venue is directly opposite Blackhorse Road Tube) BEDOUIN / HARVEY BAINBRIDGE plus ASSASSINS OF SILENCE Doors 8.00pm Tickets ?8.00 TEL: 020 8503 2523 more information at www.bedouin.info From jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM Sat Apr 12 08:46:29 2003 From: jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM (Jerry Kranitz) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:46:29 -0400 Subject: OFF: Aural Innovations Radio: New Magic Cat Radio show Message-ID: http://Aural-Innovations.com Announcements (April 12, 2003): We've just uploaded a new show from Aural Innovations Space Rock radio (show #73). This one is a guest show, the second installment of Magic Cat Radio from our friend Kev Ellis of Dr. Brown. See the playlist below. Be sure and check out the NEWS items after the playlist. Aural Innovations Radio: Magic Cat Radio show #2 Magic Cat Radio comes to us from Kev Ellis and features 43 minutes of psychedelic and other wonderful sounds from the Dr. Brown family. If you dig British Festie Space Rock and Psychedelia then you're sure to enjoy this show. Mary Jane Vs An Session (kev Ellis remix) Arlen - "Stars" (Kev Ellis remix) Magiccat band - "Baffin Blues" Unlimbo - "The Dreamery" Heliotrope - "Arabic" Legacy - "The Mountain Road" (Kev Ellis remix) Kev Ellis - "Recrossing The Border" Cosmic Voyage - "Doppler Shift" So head on over to http://Aural-Innovations.com and click on the Radio link to listen. New in stock to the Aural Innovations mail order catalog. NOT OF THIS EARTH: Sci-fi Movies Tribute - An amazing 3-CD box set compilation featuring 40 Space Rock, Psychedelic, Progressive, and Metal bands all contributing music inspired by their favorite science fiction movies and television shows. It's a beautiful set put out by the Italian Black Widow label and comes with two booklets, one with information on all the bands and the other with articles on sci fi films, the Prisoner tv show, full color Pulp mag cover reproductions, and a Prisoner comic. I've only got a handful of these and haven't added them to the online catalog so email me at jkranitz at aural-innovations.com if you're interested in a copy. Feel free to ask questions about the content. For a full track listing visit http://www.blackwidow.it/catalog-query.php?ID=61 Check out the Psychedelic music club Psychotropic Zone at Stella Star Club, Helsinki, on April 19... Just in case you happen to be in Finland then Band include Gas Giant, Spiha, and Dark Sun... WOW!!! DJs Astro & Stalker Tickets 8 Euro, Open:21-03 For more information visit http://www.unimeri.com/PsychotropicZone SPACE ROCK CON. 2003 IS COMING TO CULLMAN, AL, AUG 1ST!!! Featuring Church Of Hed (ambient/techno group from Columbus, OH), Spaceseed (hard Spacerockers from Atlanta, GA), Universal 7 (ambient/techno of David Mayall from Vinemont, AL) Location: Cullman Civic Center LIVE AT THE CULLMAN CIVIC CENTER Admission: $7, May start at 5 or 6pm and last till 11:30 pm For more info:Contact Carlo at 256-734-7496 or email at strangemage57 at hotmail.com From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 12 17:15:26 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:15:26 +0100 Subject: HW: All the Christmas Parties No. 2: HW at Walthamstow In-Reply-To: <000501c2c1b0$ae719780$60519ac2@ghostwheel3> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Alisa wrote: > > problems. Bah. Anyway. First thing that must be said is Dave played > > guitar. Lots of it. It sounded damn good. I was happy just with that. May > > be just as well as Tim Blake wasn't all that. Everyone else was fine, > > What do you mean? > Tim was supposed to play the solos instead of a lead guitar due to Huw > absence. And I was told he played. He did, as was clear from the rest of my review, I thought, but he wasn't very good. Should apologise for my English idiom or something. Yours, Jon ObCD: The Not Very Good Interval Band - _Peru_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 12 17:24:00 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:24:00 +0100 Subject: HW: All the Christmas Parties No. 2: HW at Walthamstow In-Reply-To: <20030123011845.A12976@telepres.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Eric Siegerman wrote: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 12:29:42AM +0000, Jon Jarrett wrote: > > [Litmus], well, they're really quite good aren't they. > > To me they seemed, um, mostly very loud -- and that was with my > 25-dB plugs in. You live in some world where loud isn't nearly the same as good then? :-) > Ah, well that's it then. I never was much into either, having > come to HW via prog and Kraftwerk, and via synthy classical > renditions by Walter/Wendy Carlos and imitators thereof. Prog and Kraftwerk could also be loud I'm sure. But probably not very metal. > > [HW's] sound was OK for once, > but there was one spot stage right > that shone right in my eyes for most of > the set and did cause me > some synesthesic can't-hear-properly > problems. Bah. > > Ummmm ... I think that actually was my fault :-( > > If I recall, it was originally aimed above peoples' heads, to > shine oil projections on the back wall and ceiling. But for > Lighthouse I wobbled a prism around in front of the lens to make > bits of oil projection dance all around the room. Very cool > effect ... but to see what I was doing I had to turn away from > the projector, and so to keep the prism aligned properly I leaned > a finger *very lightly* on top of the lens just for the tactile > feedback ... but the projector was so heavy that my little finger > was enough to make it kind of sag down in its mounting, so that > it shone right in peoples' eyes once I took the prism away. I > tried to re-aim the thing afterward, but it was too heavy for me > to do that during the set without potentially making the > situation even worse, so I had to leave it. > > Sorry, Jon and everyone else up there! No, if that was all you were doing :-) you weren't to blame. This one was there all gig. > > Arthur Brown was very himself, but the band don't really know what to do > > witgh him any more than they do with Blake sometimes. The songs don't > > *need* a man with a three-octave range singing them, they were never > > designed for that sort of voice and he doesn't have anything much he can > > do with them. > > Musically perhaps, though I thought he found his way into the > material as the tour progressed. But for stage presence, sheer > front-man-ness, I like him. > > I agree about his talent; he can do that Ian-Gillan wail far > better than Gillan himself can these days. Damn I'd love to hear > him sing Highway Star! Very true. It would be rather fine. But there's so little of the real DP left nowadays we can hardly reduce them any further... He is a class frontman. But Dave isn't giving up the second front man spot any more, and so any frontman has to keep stepping back a minute. Never been quite sure that this was an ideal way to manage things. > There were persistent rumours that Simon would put in an > appearance, so I was eagerly awaiting Spiral Galaxy, but it was > not to be. Does *anyone* know what's up with Simon? I keep hearing he's ill but whatever it is he's got it must be intermittent because people keep thinking he'll turn up... > > Arthur Brown returned for `Time Captives', which wa sprobably > > quite good from the floor where Brown standing on an amp to give a > > something like nine-foot height to solemly declaim from would have made > > the whole thing very haunting. > > From above it all though I was rather bored > > with it. The lyrics were lame; I was expecting better by Arthur Brown, and > > it has no progression either lyrically or musically. > > Agreed. The song left me rather cold. The other Arthur Brown number, I discover on purchasing the Crazy World album, was `Time' from that same album. Or at least that has very similar lyrics. > But there was the one night he flubbed a line of Aerospaceage > Inferno -- made the natural mistake of singing "set the controls > for the heart of the sun" -- and then on the spot improvised two > more lines to rhyme with it! I remain in absolute awe of that. That's good going all right. Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 12 17:31:44 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:31:44 +0100 Subject: HW: Not of this Earth 3-CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Henderson Keith wrote: > Hawkwind's contribution is a new (or I should say 'yet again different') > version of Sonic Attack, entitled "This is Hawkwind Sonic Attack" the lyrics > of which seem unchanged. The lineup is given as Brock/Davey/Tree/Chadwick, > so this is from a few years ago (and would seemingly match up with when this > project was started). The vocals are a dead ringer for Calvert, but I guess > it's really Ron doing an amazing likeness, or else Dave uncovered an old > track of Calvert's from the distant past. I dunno...I've only given the > thing a quick cursory listen. The music seemed totally different than any > other version...no real bass guitar I don't think, but kinda trancey > synths/percussion along with some guitar playing from Dave. Not sure what > Alan was doing...wave sequencer stuff perhaps, whatever that is. It's 7 > minutes long, and I think it's just fine though not superior to actually > hearing something that's not already 30 years old in part. Interestingly, > it's associated with "When Worlds Collide" but I really don't know how - > they have a writeup about said SF story, but nothing about how it connects > to Moorcock's words. Or if it even does. The writing credits go to > Moorcock, Calvert, Brock, Chadwick...not sure when/why Calvert was ever > awarded writing credit here, but you know how these things have continually > evolved over the years! As Alisa pointed out, this is in fact the same version of the track as that on the `Love in Space' CDEP. Which makes Hawkwind the only band that didn't do a new track for the compilation, which is a bit poor I think. I would guess that there *is* no connection with `When Worlds Collide', they just sent them something obscure they had in the can. As for the actual track, the vocal is Calvert, it's the one from the version on _Atomhenge 76_, and therefore _Thrilling Adventures_ if the track's on that disc. I'm 100% sure of this. I assume therefore that the other credits are the new backing, in `The Dream Goes On/Has Ended' style. But why Calvert himself gets a credit I couldn't tell you, he doesn't change any of the words except `possible' for `practical', which to my mind isn't enough, no? I did think this was a bit of a zero effort syndrome all round for Hawkwind when it came out. Yours, Jon ObCD: The Sons of Selina - _Fire in the Hole_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 12 18:42:53 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 18:42:53 -0400 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:38:03 +0100, =?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?= wrote: >Includes a stunning version of Motorway City that is worth the price >alone IMHO, although I'm not so keen on the rest of it... > >AL That's curious, a number of people have raved here about that track, and I can't really see what the fuss is about, although it's never been a favourite of mine anyway. The Live '79 version is still the one I'd take above all others. As for the rest of Family Tree, the Chadwick track is excellent, The Paradogs stuff is not bad, and the Dave Brock and Ron Tree tracks are pure filler. The Brock stuff is bland ambient techno that goes absolutely nowhere, and Ron's efforts are just random padding. The best (!) of the Ron tracks is Tripping Shipping, which is just a straight recording of the radio shipping forecast with a few electronic yowls and blarts added. I had hoped for something along the lines of the old F+R albums, but there were always a few gems tucked away on those, while there's only one track of any real note here. It's not an even remotely essential purchase IMHO. Although the actual CD has a very attractive design on it, FWIW. Nick From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Apr 12 19:26:24 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55017) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:26:24 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb In-Reply-To: <200304081759.NAA02679@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Then if you're bandwidth is so precious why are you subscribed for OFF: posts? These are specifically for Non-Hawkwind subjects, the Doctors having this discussion are operating completely within the BOC-L guidelines and very interesting it is too. On Tuesday 08 Apr 2003 18:59, you wrote: > >and those of use who are using dial-up modems, so effectively paying to > > get this list PER WORD are getting hacked off with the reams of > > pontification > > on > > >economics. Take it offlist please? > > OK. From jill at THETA-ORIONIS.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Apr 12 20:40:19 2003 From: jill at THETA-ORIONIS.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Jill Strobridge) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 01:40:19 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb Message-ID: The problem may be (looking at the header) is that they are subscribed to BOC-L in digest mode which doesn't separate out the different header types - everything is lumped together in one message no matter what the header content. Consequently the digest message is likely, in some cases, to consist almost entirely of various economics posts! jill ----------------------------------------------------------------- Jill Strobridge ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben F. 55017" To: Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:26 AM Subject: Re: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb > Then if you're bandwidth is so precious why are you subscribed for OFF: posts? > These are specifically for Non-Hawkwind subjects, the Doctors having this > discussion are operating completely within the BOC-L guidelines and very > interesting it is too. > > On Tuesday 08 Apr 2003 18:59, you wrote: > > >and those of use who are using dial-up modems, so effectively paying to > > > get this list PER WORD are getting hacked off with the reams of > > > pontification > > > > on > > > > >economics. Take it offlist please? > > > > OK. > From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Apr 13 12:06:22 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55017) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:06:22 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb Message-ID: Whoever doesnt want the Economics posts in digestmode can unsub them v.easily. They would only take about 20ms to load on a 56k modem anyway. Asking people to not post OFF: topics to save a fraction of a cent is a blatant violation of Free Speech. If the person who requested this [banning of OFF: posts] were some sort of Agent who's mission is to stop people finding out the truth about this corrupt system s/he couldnt do a better job. Jill Strobridge wrote: >The problem may be (looking at the header) is that they are subscribed >to BOC-L in digest mode which doesn't separate out the different header >types - everything is lumped together in one message no matter what the >header content. Consequently the digest message is likely, in some >cases, to consist almost entirely of various economics posts! > >jill >----------------------------------------------------------------- >Jill Strobridge >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ben F. 55017" >To: >Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:26 AM >Subject: Re: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb > > > > >>Then if you're bandwidth is so precious why are you subscribed for >> >> >OFF: posts? > > >>These are specifically for Non-Hawkwind subjects, the Doctors having >> >> >this > > >>discussion are operating completely within the BOC-L guidelines and >> >> >very > > >>interesting it is too. >> >>On Tuesday 08 Apr 2003 18:59, you wrote: >> >> >>>>and those of use who are using dial-up modems, so effectively >>>> >>>> >paying to > > >>>>get this list PER WORD are getting hacked off with the reams of >>>>pontification >>>> >>>> >>>on >>> >>> >>> >>>>economics. Take it offlist please? >>>> >>>> >>>OK. >>> >>> > > > From jill at THETA-ORIONIS.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Apr 13 16:06:28 2003 From: jill at THETA-ORIONIS.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Jill Strobridge) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:06:28 +0100 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben F. 55017" > Whoever doesnt want the Economics posts in digestmode can unsub them > v.easily. They would only take about 20ms to load on a 56k modem anyway. oh, ok - that may very well be the case - it wasn't possible the last time I tried but that was a long time ago now and I haven't looked at the options recently. > Asking people to not post OFF: topics to save a fraction of a cent is a > blatant violation of Free Speech. Though, equally, the concept of Free Speech gives whoever it was complete liberty to complain if they want to - whatever the reason might be. jill In the interests of Free Speech and Liberty I defend to the death my right to be wrong ----------------------------------------------------------------- Jill Strobridge ----------------------------------------------------------------- From nycademon at ATTBI.COM Mon Apr 14 00:43:31 2003 From: nycademon at ATTBI.COM (Guido Vacano) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:43:31 -0600 Subject: BOC-L Digest - Economics blurb In-Reply-To: <3E998AFE.1040109@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: Ben F. 55017 wrote: > Whoever doesnt want the Economics posts in digestmode can unsub them > v.easily. They would only take about 20ms to load on a 56k modem anyway. > Asking people to not post OFF: topics to save a fraction of a cent is a > blatant violation of Free Speech. Hmm, reminds me of the "logic" one sees in a right wing tirade where the author claims he'll defend the liberal's right to free speech "to the death", and in the same breath, declares that the liberal has no right to question authority. Guido From achad13 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 14 07:29:47 2003 From: achad13 at HOTMAIL.COM (dave evans) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:29:47 +0100 Subject: economics Message-ID: : ) I seem to have stirred up the folk here a bit- to the ironic extent that today's digest is ENTIRELY about economics........ here's my take on it 1) i'm on this list for Hawkwind material, if i want "Consumer Economics 101" i would subscribe to ++ that ++ list 2) I have tried to change my settings to ON-list only, but it doesn't work on the Digest version, hence my request to TAKE it offlist, not merely MARK it as such and still post to the list 3) there is a problem with people who make a three-line reply to a 50-line posting and quote that 50 line posting in full.... then someone does a 3-line reply to the 3-line reply, quoting the other 50 and you get a 56-line reply, which someone else writes an essay about and quotes in full.... and someone else makes a two-line response to that essay, quoting the entire body of the previous text, and someone else makes a smartass three word reply to the essay and quotes it in full- in other words a lot of redundancy and repetition within each digest; the accumulation of which over time DOES make a difference in download time- where i live has no broadband and dialup is the only option 4) making this a "free speech" issue is really very petty and stupid, to which the obvious response is that i am, within the same parameters, allowed to post my "thoughts on everything" on this lsit, providing there is some very tenuosu link to Hawkwind or BOC...........? I can bore the shit out of people at great length with the best of them- perhaps you'd like to read my 20,000 word History thesis? It mentions a Hawk once or twice, so is arguably relevant to the list 5) the initial premise, that somehow there is an official and regualted way that bands get paid from secondhand sales was +++ pretty flaky +++ in any case jmo Dave (a Hawkfan, not a wobbly Economics theorist) From neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM Mon Apr 14 06:04:09 2003 From: neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM (Neil Shilladay) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:04:09 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: As I started this thread, I should point out that I did purchase the above, and feel I should add my comments I like the Paradogs numbers a lot. I thought Jerry brought a rock sound to the Hawks, which is my kind of thing. The Richard Chadwick number is cool once I get past the seven minutes of dance beat stuff, (sorry, not my cup of tea). The Ron Tree , and the Dave Brock stuff is ok, but doesn't really strike you. The version of Motorway City is suberb. I like it a lot, because of the extra guitar sound there, it really drives the song. Overall, I'm glad I picked it up, but agree it not essential. Thanks to everyone for their comments. Cheers Neil. From andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG Mon Apr 14 08:03:06 2003 From: andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG (Andrew Apold) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:03:06 -0400 Subject: solution to the economics problem Message-ID: Well, you all can debate, but you gotta set your economic theories to match the meter of some hawkwind of boc piece... (CD-Rider) cds selling in the stores... they could sell so many more... they never knew what royalties they only got their one-time fees... Their sales determined by our laws I really have no clue because... of all the versions, I suppose... Ask Doug Smith he probably knows Selling out, restock the bins Raise the price, Reissue in... and so forth From dplaw at IC24.NET Mon Apr 14 11:08:05 2003 From: dplaw at IC24.NET (Dave Law) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:08:05 -0400 Subject: SORRY, BUT IT'S ANOTHER WORLD EXCLUSIVE Message-ID: we can't help it honest, but once again we seem to bring you exciting news from the world of hawkwind, so may we suggest that you have a look at this - http://www.hawkwindmuseum.co.uk/publicis.htm and let us know your thoughts regards dave From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Mon Apr 14 11:18:32 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:18:32 +0100 Subject: SORRY, BUT IT'S ANOTHER WORLD EXCLUSIVE In-Reply-To: Dave Law's message of Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:08:05 -0400 Message-ID: Dave Law writes: > we can't help it honest, but once again we seem to bring you exciting news > from the world of hawkwind, so may we suggest that you have a look at > this - http://www.hawkwindmuseum.co.uk/publicis.htm > and let us know your thoughts My first is that blue on black is almost impossible to read... FoFP From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 14 13:19:27 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:19:27 +0100 Subject: HW: some, OFF: much In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Henderson Keith wrote: > So, with the end of Burg Herzberg and the end of Strange Days US, > I wonder about the future of "Space Rock, the Next Generation." > Is it headed for another long hiatus? I'm really starting to feel > like maybe the peak of its return happened in ~1999 and that > ironically since 2001 we've seen the bubble burst a little bit. > Maybe not to the same degree as NASDAQ, but... I as ever stand to the pessimistic side on such matters so must stick my oar in... > US space rock has suffered many losses in recent years, including > Farflung & P-hed (to their electronic alter-ego), and a host of > retirements (Sky Cries Mary, Quarkspace and ArcMet to retirement, > and Das Ludicroix and Born to Go to health, and Alien Planetscapes > has suffered too though Doug continues). I don't know what the 2 > Steve's have done, if they did indeed emigrate to the UK last fall > (as all indications were), their activity there has been greatly > hidden and Star Nation (with a great full album in hand) seem to > do nothing to support it. Maybe they will arise at Summerfest > (if itself arises!). Well, Stephan Forstner has since posted that there *is* to be more Farflung activity yet, which is desperately good news to me, but I guess it will be a while before we get it, and I'm having great trouble getting hold of _When Science Fails_ meanwhile (are you listening Andy G.?). Das Ludicroix were unlikely to return to activity for various personal and organisational reasons even before Larry died but now of course there's no chance. Well. The name was officially bequeathed to Carl Anderson at their last ever gig, but I think Carl like myself feels that is was Larry's project, and it's ironic but true that DL, a band which was constructed afresh every time it played, still won't ever be the same without its core of Larry and Ian Souther, the lead guitarist. If another Das Ludicroix should ever play it will be no more than a tribute. I personally won't miss Quarkspace or Architectural Metaphor, mind, a very odd definition of space-rock or indeed quality to my ears. But I recognise this to be an unusual view. Seems very hard to tell what Alien Planetscapes are up to either, but I hope they remain active because, well, somebody's got to. There's always ST37 of course. But Texas is a long way to go to get your space-rock. What's Marc Power up to these days, anyone know? The one active figure in US spacerock at the moment, well, is being active in fields other than space-rock, by which I mean Mike Burro of Sloterdijk, who seems all taken up with One-Eyed Bishops stuff at the moment. Thing is even if this weren't so one band, particularly a one-man band, can't save a scene over the whole US. > One positive note is that groups in Texas seem to be producing > output in similar quantities as they did in the '90s, even though > I don't think any of them can really afford to play out live > outside their home state where much of their fan base likely is > (or *would* be, if they could!). Yup. ST37 as I say, and as you probably meant, but I always find them worth emphasising anyway. > I've just recently gotten some of the new Hungarian albums, and > I have to say they're not as good as the ones from just a few > years ago. I think they're following the same trail as the > early 90s UK free-festy psych bands blazed....i.e., going more > from rock towards electronica. Korai Orom in the middle of > their current career, i.e., 1997, hit the proper balance of the > 2 IMHO with a fantastic album. But the 2001 disc didn't do the > same for me...it wasn't really more electronic, just less > interesting. Colorstar is more trancey now, and I didn't like > it as much. The second Nine Invisibles didn't really improve > from the first either (back to the UK now), and is hardly what > Ship of Fools was. The second Nine Invisibles album is a fine dance album, leaves several of Orbital's ones to stand in the corner, but no, space-rock it isn't. I'm not convinced Ship of Fools were either, mind, unless their bass-player woke up a lot live. If they ever gigged. Don't know any of the Hungarian stuff I confess. Where would one ideally start with fixing that? > Also, too, Nordic space-rock continues, but I don't know that > it goes with the same gusto as the mid- to late-90s. Darxtar > released the interesting Tombola album, which was far different > from anything they'd done (or anybody else really) in the past. > But they hardly seem to be alive, let alone active on the circuit. > Pseudo Sun finally got their album out and it's a good one, but > can they afford to do much live? From what very little I know both bands are skint. It would be unkind, but not that far from the facts I think, to say that DarXtar particularly are too far gone into inactivity to organise their own gigs. I speculate that the failure of the Kobenhavn space-rock festival to happen has probably killed Soren's will to be doing much about that off again, as may anything less than fabulous sales of _Tombola_ which considering its almost zero publicity I doubt it's had. Fantastic album mind, and quite uncategorisable, but there's certainly space-rock on it, and dramatic stuff too. Dark Sun seem to be mired in perpetual forthcomingness too, and 5:15, well, they're not the same kettle of fish at all are they despite Nik's involvement and playing as a Space Ritual in the US. > In the UK, Quimby and Litmus are active, but seem to rely quite > a lot on opportunities presented by the likes of established names > (Ozrics and Hawkwind) for live dates. Not meaning to demean them, > as I think they're both entirely capable on their own of carrying > their own shows...just stating a(n unfortunate) fact. Not too sure what the Ozrics are doing, even. They seem persistently active but their plans keep changing at short notice, which the last time was promoter's fault but this time, if it's correct that they're not appearing at Nottingham (and dammit I'm trying to organise going to that I wish someone would make up their minds), I don't know. Whether you consider them anything other than a retread act is another matter; I think they never quite get that far gone myself and they're always fantastic live, but. What Hawkwind are doing, well, there is some of it, but it's not aimed at getting CDs into shops at this time it seems, but suitably friendly guests into private gigs. Neither band is going to keep this flame burning except in their own names and their own followings. People won't be going "wow, space-rock is fantastic, what other bands are there?" from seeing them IMO. MQB seem to keep touring at least, but no big dates; they also seem to get albums out though nothing for a while now. Litmus, well, I have little impression of them bar the one performance I've seen and their website, but aggressive self-promoters they ain't. Apart from anything else I've been trying to get hold of their demos and never had an answer. I probably can't be organised enough to get them a gig in Cambrdge anyway but they don't know that. New Krel album is, from Andy G.'s publicity for it, going to change the shape of the world, but I'll see; new Starfield album would also be good. Some hint of what Star Nation are doing... Their website seems to have gone. It all seems to be still bar the two big names occasionally gigging at the momment, If there is, as is quite possible, fiendishly busy activity behind the scenes, it's not coming forward. I'll modify that: Bedouin, too, are gigging like bastards. But new material was thin on the ground last I saw of them (one new song, one rearranged old one). > OK, 'nuff that. Too depressing to think about any more. I don't think this is anything new. Carl Anderson was saying shortly after Strange Daze '99 that all the promising bands were being killed off by disorganisation and ill-will. The reason Born To Go didn't gig for the last year or two of their notional existence was that in that time Marc Power was unable to organise a practice which all the band members attended. Josh Homme of Queens of the Stone Age says, in one interview, that one of the reasons he loves his current band and lifestyle is that he can call up any of the people he works with, more or less, and say, "come and jam" any time of day and they'll drop what they're doing and do so because they're that far into it. Now most of the space-rock generation have got jobs and so on, but even so, that level of commitment is missing. It's endemic through the scene: the poeple who could make a difference, be it in making music, playing it, or just promoting it, booking gigs, the support network, we've all (and I count myself among this for what I think--as no doubt does everyone else--are regrettable but convincing reasons (Ph.D., family)) got better things or at least too much else to do and the music isn't important enough to win. How you solve that I don't know. Currently society seems unfriendly to our sort of endeavour. Should make it more urgent to try of course. Oh well. Yours, Jon ObCD: Mogwai - _Come On Die Young_ (I advise you all to buy Godspeed You Black Emperor! instead, as it does the same thing better) -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From m.j.crook at TALK21.COM Mon Apr 14 15:01:02 2003 From: m.j.crook at TALK21.COM (Mick Crook) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:01:02 -0400 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: Neil Wrote - >The version of Motorway City is suberb. I like it a lot, because of the >extra guitar sound there, it really drives the song. > >Overall, I'm glad I picked it up, but agree it not essential. > >Thanks to everyone for their comments. > >Cheers >Neil. I agree! Anyone know for sure when this version was recorded? Perhaps it should be classed as a Hawklords track as Dave only re-formed the band as Hawkwind a few days prior to the Futurama festival in Sep 79 when HLL rejoined, and HLL doesn't appear on this version - The keyboards also sound a bit Hawlordish to me as well....just a thought. I also recall reading somewhere (dammned if I can remember where) that Shot Down.. was lined up as a possible Hawklords single. Perhaps there's a version gathering dust with same line up as the Family Tree Motorway City? Mick -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com From starfield at SUPANET.COM Mon Apr 14 15:16:52 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:16:52 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: A recording of it certainly exists in the vaults... > > I also recall reading somewhere (dammned if I can remember where) that Shot Down.. was lined up as a possible Hawklords > single. Perhaps there's a version gathering dust with same line up as the Family Tree Motorway City? > > > Mick > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 14 15:24:50 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:24:50 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <001a01c2d2d9$d1cb6820$883dfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > I think that this particular line of discussion should probably end here. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ted Jackson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call > > > > On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:23:33 -0500, Mike Montfort > > > wrote: > > > >YO COLIN! > > > > > > > >Does the ban include these types of projects? (Sorry, I've lost the attribution for this next paragraph.) > > > This project doesn't include any recordings of Hawkwind. You'd have > > > to ask representatives of the bands in question (many of whom can be > > > found here). > > > > > But if you cover HW tunes, you'd need the writers' permission to use them. > > Technically, they could charge you for it! I'd love to know why Colin felt that he should say what he did to that. Perhaps it's a joke I'm not getting. It's certainly not his call to make. Along similar lines... On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > > From: Colin J Allen > Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > Subject: Re: Studio Album > > Hi Jon, > > Replies are in the text. I've added indents to make it clear what's mine and what's yours as by the blessing of Outlook Express 6.0 it has become rather unclear... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Jarrett" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:18 PM > Subject: Re: Studio Album > > > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Chris Raymond wrote: > > > > > > I copied this from MC: > > > ------------- > > > FUTURE PLANS: Our current project is ' Destruction of The Death > > > Generator' which is being written in conjunction with Michael Moorcock. > > > We have been working in conjunction with both Mike Moorcock and Mike > > > Butterworth, and we are now in the process of rehearsing the material, > > > which will hopefully be recorded in the spring. Following rehearsals of > > > the stage show, the band will tour late summer. The line up will > > > contain the current nucleus, coupled with some past members who have > > > featured in the band during the past 30 years, similar to the highly > > > successful Y2k Hawkestra event at the Brixton Academy. We are also > > > currently reviewing plans to do another tour of Australia & New > > > Zealand, maybe later in the year...... > > > --------------- Maybe worth my pointing out that this text remains on the `official source of Hawkwind info' from two years ago. Eternally young, these plans are. > > Colin Allen will of course be best placed to answer this, but > > that announcement on MC predates Nik's attempt at a second Hawkestra and I > > think the involving of old members idea has gone by the bye now. Half > > of them were supposed to be suing for royalties not so long ago if we > > believe hawkethos, after all, which I'm not saying we do. But Harvey > > and Simon seem to be keeping their distance at the moment. > > Hawkethos was not believeable:). Harvey is doing solo work at the moment (I > spoke to him a couple of days ago and he is working on new material). > Simon's absence from the tour was for real and valid reasons; he will be on > the album and, all being well, back on stage soon. I do not think that > anything on the scale of Hawkwestra will happen but there may well be a few > surprises. So are you saying that there was no suit and that Nik and Chris Hewitt were making the whole thing up? If you aren't, what are you saying? > > > So does this mean that here is a studio album that has already been > > > recorded and about to be released, and then the Death Generator to be > > > released later in 2003? Sorry to sound unhappy, but I have gotten fat, > > > old and grey since In your Area was released. Finally, I hope that > > > when there is a new album to buy, that it will available in stores > > > instead of just by mailorder. > > > > That last will definitely be down to Colin but I don't think > > we can criticise him if he's unable to cut into the big distributors' > > networks. If the band wanted that they shouldn't have fired Doug > > Smith; whatever else it got them in tems of artistic freedom, it cost > > them that. > > > > I believe, and would love to be corrected, that the new album > > which was recently said to be finished, is going to be what's left of > > the Death Generator concept album from 1998, but since _Spacebrock_ and > > _Family Tree_ emerged in that time I don't suppose much material > > existed until quite recently. I await its final emergence, once artwork, > > mastering, mixing, pressing and finally distribution have finally been > > sorted out, with very little idea of what to expect because everything > > that we've seen other than `Strange Fruit' rather relied in Ron on > > vocals... Whatever it is it will be unexpected. > > Unexpected and good:). Normally I'd preface something like this with a phrase along the lines of `I hope you'll forgive me for saying' or some such, but actually I won't pretend to care. `This album' has been in the works for five years, in the course of which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind album (_Spacebrock_) has come out thus using up a precious third of the, what, six at most new tracks we've seen the band play in that time. In *five years*. Furthermore, in that time we've seen, um, at least five people with previous writing credits leave the band (though none of them were on the last studio album billed as Hawkwind anyway), and Moorcock at least once publicly disavow any further involvement with Hawkwind. This bloody album could hardly get more unexpected. *If* it finally emerges, which I no longer believe anyone saying, I'm sure some people will think it's good, but one of the people Brock pays to lie to the fanbase about this is not going to be the person whose opinion I trust on this. You can safely let me make up my own mind thanks. Yours, Jon ObCD: Black Label Society - _Sonic Brew_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From bernhard.pospiech at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Apr 14 15:56:16 2003 From: bernhard.pospiech at T-ONLINE.DE (Bernhard Pospiech) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:56:16 +0200 Subject: HW: Family Tree In-Reply-To: <002b01c302ba$6805f7a0$a7af6fd4@lucidzoo> Message-ID: Hi I am still not sure where this MOTORWAY CITY (family tree) version comes from Dave Brock told me that it is from Stonehenge 1979 Did not know that HAWKWIND played Stonehenge that year What was the lineup ?? Bernhard At 20:16 14.04.2003 +0100, you wrote: >A recording of it certainly exists in the vaults... > >> >> I also recall reading somewhere (dammned if I can remember where) that >Shot Down.. was lined up as a possible Hawklords >> single. Perhaps there's a version gathering dust with same line up as the >Family Tree Motorway City? >> >> >> Mick >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------- >> talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at >http://www.talk21.com > From mr_bt at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Apr 14 16:12:11 2003 From: mr_bt at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (colm mcwilliams) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:12:11 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: Captain Black, What else do you think exists in the vaults? I mean do you think there is enough unreleased material to put at least one cd together? cheers colm ----- Original Message ----- From: Captain Bl at ck To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: Re: HW: Family Tree A recording of it certainly exists in the vaults... > > I also recall reading somewhere (dammned if I can remember where) that Shot Down.. was lined up as a possible Hawklords > single. Perhaps there's a version gathering dust with same line up as the Family Tree Motorway City? > > > Mick > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Apr 14 16:15:48 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:15:48 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: As ever, responses are in the text. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Jarrett" To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album > On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > > > I think that this particular line of discussion should probably end here. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ted Jackson" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:50 AM > > Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:23:33 -0500, Mike Montfort > > > > wrote: > > > > >YO COLIN! > > > > > > > > > >Does the ban include these types of projects? > > (Sorry, I've lost the attribution for this next paragraph.) > > > > > This project doesn't include any recordings of Hawkwind. You'd have > > > > to ask representatives of the bands in question (many of whom can be > > > > found here). > > > > > > > But if you cover HW tunes, you'd need the writers' permission to use them. > > > Technically, they could charge you for it! > > I'd love to know why Colin felt that he should say > what he did to that. Perhaps it's a joke I'm not getting. It's certainly > not his call to make. Along similar lines... Sorry, I did not realise that I need your permission to make a comment! > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > > > > From: Colin J Allen > > Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List > > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > > Subject: Re: Studio Album > > > > Hi Jon, > > > > Replies are in the text. > > I've added indents to make it clear what's mine and what's yours > as by the blessing of Outlook Express 6.0 it has become rather unclear... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jon Jarrett" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:18 PM > > Subject: Re: Studio Album > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Chris Raymond wrote: > > > > > > > > I copied this from MC: > > > > ------------- > > > > FUTURE PLANS: Our current project is ' Destruction of The Death > > > > Generator' which is being written in conjunction with Michael Moorcock. > > > > We have been working in conjunction with both Mike Moorcock and Mike > > > > Butterworth, and we are now in the process of rehearsing the material, > > > > which will hopefully be recorded in the spring. Following rehearsals of > > > > the stage show, the band will tour late summer. The line up will > > > > contain the current nucleus, coupled with some past members who have > > > > featured in the band during the past 30 years, similar to the highly > > > > successful Y2k Hawkestra event at the Brixton Academy. We are also > > > > currently reviewing plans to do another tour of Australia & New > > > > Zealand, maybe later in the year...... > > > > --------------- > > Maybe worth my pointing out that this text remains on the > `official source of Hawkwind info' from two years ago. Eternally young, > these plans are. > > > > Colin Allen will of course be best placed to answer this, but > > > that announcement on MC predates Nik's attempt at a second Hawkestra and I > > > think the involving of old members idea has gone by the bye now. Half > > > of them were supposed to be suing for royalties not so long ago if we > > > believe hawkethos, after all, which I'm not saying we do. But Harvey > > > and Simon seem to be keeping their distance at the moment. > > > > Hawkethos was not believeable:). Harvey is doing solo work at the moment (I > > spoke to him a couple of days ago and he is working on new material). > > Simon's absence from the tour was for real and valid reasons; he will be on > > the album and, all being well, back on stage soon. I do not think that > > anything on the scale of Hawkwestra will happen but there may well be a few > > surprises. > > So are you saying that there was no suit and that Nik and Chris > Hewitt were making the whole thing up? If you aren't, what are you saying? Strangely, we have not heard anything more of this suit and neither have most of the people listed in the Hawkethos post. Draw your own conclusions. > > > > > So does this mean that here is a studio album that has already been > > > > recorded and about to be released, and then the Death Generator to be > > > > released later in 2003? Sorry to sound unhappy, but I have gotten fat, > > > > old and grey since In your Area was released. Finally, I hope that > > > > when there is a new album to buy, that it will available in stores > > > > instead of just by mailorder. > > > > > > That last will definitely be down to Colin but I don't think > > > we can criticise him if he's unable to cut into the big distributors' > > > networks. If the band wanted that they shouldn't have fired Doug > > > Smith; whatever else it got them in tems of artistic freedom, it cost > > > them that. > > > > > > I believe, and would love to be corrected, that the new album > > > which was recently said to be finished, is going to be what's left of > > > the Death Generator concept album from 1998, but since _Spacebrock_ and > > > _Family Tree_ emerged in that time I don't suppose much material > > > existed until quite recently. I await its final emergence, once artwork, > > > mastering, mixing, pressing and finally distribution have finally been > > > sorted out, with very little idea of what to expect because everything > > > that we've seen other than `Strange Fruit' rather relied in Ron on > > > vocals... Whatever it is it will be unexpected. > > > > Unexpected and good:). > > Normally I'd preface something like this with a phrase along the > lines of `I hope you'll forgive me for saying' or some such, but actually > I won't pretend to care. `This album' has been in the works for five > years, in the course of which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind > album (_Spacebrock_) has come out thus using up a precious third of the, > what, six at most new tracks we've seen the band play in that time. In > *five years*. > > Furthermore, in that time we've seen, um, at least five people with > previous writing credits leave the band (though none of them were on the > last studio album billed as Hawkwind anyway), and Moorcock at least once > publicly disavow any further involvement with Hawkwind. This bloody album > could hardly get more unexpected. *If* it finally emerges, which I no > longer believe anyone saying, I'm sure some people will think it's good, > but one of the people Brock pays to lie to the fanbase about this is > not going to be the person whose opinion I trust on this. You can safely > let me make up my own mind thanks. Yours, Jon, when making comments it is rather useful to get one's facts correct, rather than allowing your own delusions free rein. I am sure that you can make up your own mind (you seem already to have done so). As usual, your logic is so flawed as to be amusing. > Jon > ObCD: Black Label Society - _Sonic Brew_ > -- > "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine > law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient > to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the > delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) > From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Mon Apr 14 16:24:00 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:24:00 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree In-Reply-To: <195A88-0S5BgIC@fwd07.sul.t-online.com> Message-ID: At last some interest. My first ever post to the Yahoo group was on this issue and I think I got just one reply :-( I think it is most likely Stonehenge 79, unless the cheering is overdubbed a la Social Alliance, Business Trip, in which case it may be studio. Stonehenge 79 is listed in Adrian Parr's Roadhawks gig book. Dave credits it as HW 79, so for me the line-up has to be Brock/Bainbridge/Swindells/King. It must reamins-of-Hawklords rather than the new Hawkwind of Live 79 fame. You can hear Huw isn't on it, the only lead guitar is Dave's trademark chopping. Tim isn't on it, the keybds are far more like the spiralling sounds of Valium Ten, British Tribal Music. Can't be sure on the bass & drums but it ain't likely to be anybody else around that time, except maybe the mysterious Mike Smith of Valium Ten fame - anybody know who he was? This is a rare gem, and the fact that Dave can spring something out of his archives like this after 20+ yrs just goes to show you never know what's around the corner. Come on Dave, release the whole show! AL --- Bernhard Pospiech wrote: > Hi > > > I am still not sure where this MOTORWAY CITY (family tree) version > comes from > > Dave Brock told me that it is from Stonehenge 1979 > > > Did not know that HAWKWIND played Stonehenge that year > > What was the lineup ?? > > > > > Bernhard > > > At 20:16 14.04.2003 +0100, you wrote: > >A recording of it certainly exists in the vaults... > > > >> > >> I also recall reading somewhere (dammned if I can remember where) > that > >Shot Down.. was lined up as a possible Hawklords > >> single. Perhaps there's a version gathering dust with same line up > as the > >Family Tree Motorway City? > >> > >> > >> Mick __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 14 16:30:51 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:30:51 +0100 Subject: OFF: Ship of Fools new album In-Reply-To: <3E4ADB4C.9060204@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Jerry Guizar wrote: > Jon Jarrett wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Alisa wrote: > > > >>there is a new album on Peaceville coming soon. Anyone knows are they > >>reunited? > > > > Wouldn't mind some information on this myself, if anyone's got > > any. I read somewhere that this new one (_Get This Mother Outta Here_ if I > > have that right) is a best of. This strikes me as odd as I believe you can > > squeeze both their actual albums onto a single CD. But I guess there were > > singles and compilation tracks which might mean you could get a different > > tracklisting with less filler in it? I don't know. Anyone do? > > Out There Somewhere comes in at 57:33 and Close Your Eyes > is 55:39. According to my copies anyway. That's very odd. Well, probably not to you, but I'm sure I remember the Freak Emporium selling the two albums as a twofer single CD. Perhaps it was only selections from each. Ah well, matters not because I got this new one instead, of which, on Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Steve Youles wrote: > I had only ever heard 1 track by this band. on Aural Innovations, and it > stood out as being excellent. This is a great album, the best thing I've > heard for at least a year. It starts off with Church-of-Hawkwind era > synths, Simon House-esque keyboards, voice samples (it's otherwise > instrumental), and a hypnotic groove; but it is not at all derivative of > HW, IMHO.... The overall sound is more clean-cut, but retaining tons of > atmospherics, and they are less guitarcentric than Hawkwind. Although L=SD2 > has a very Brockesque rhythm guitar, and in general is quite reminiscent of > HW circa Alien4. The former sentiment also goes for 'From Time' which has > a monstrous, processed guitar upfront. "Not derivative", eh? I think it's > to do with the high quality of the compositions & arrangements - this > material stands up on its own merits. I heard `Guidance is Internal' on a BOC-L trade tape ages ago and resolved that I must get more. Then later on, having never quite got round to doing so, I found a compilation that my girlfriend's ex had passed onto her and which she happily passed on to me, her interests as with his being more metallic. It has `L=SD^2' and another track called `Psychodelick' on it, and they left me rather underwhelmed. Now I have this, `L=SD^2' sounds a bit fresher but still. The high end is very good. Twin keyboards over everything, good sampling, nice production (now--the one track I can compare makes me think that whatever "remastered" means here it's good), and some very Brockish guitar in places, yes. But the bass player is alseep for most of it. People keep comparing this to the Ozrics but compared to them it's missing their most crucial element, bounce and drive. In particular a track called `Diesel Spaceship' should *not* sound as lightweight as that. But, but. I do like it. There are parts where the bass wakes up and it becomes more exciting, and `Guidance is Internal' is the best of them I think. And it's quite pleasant background even so. But whereas Adrian Parr once said of the Ozrics that they were a great substitute when you'd run out of coffee, this lot are more a kind of very well blended spiced hot chocolate. Pretty-tasting but will be best at bedtime. Just my opinion of course. Yours, Jon ObCD: High Tide - _Sea Shanties/High Tide_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Mon Apr 14 17:10:00 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:10:00 +0100 Subject: OFF: Ship of Fools new album Message-ID: > That's very odd. Well, probably not to you, but I'm sure I > remember the Freak Emporium selling the two albums as a twofer single CD. > Perhaps it was only selections from each. Ah well, matters not because I > got this new one instead, of which, on Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Steve Youles > wrote: > double cd, single cd price - I have a copy. Only wanted the first album as I already had 'Close Your Eyes..' Nick From mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK Mon Apr 14 17:22:48 2003 From: mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK (Mark Von Bargen) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:22:48 +0100 Subject: OFF: Ship of Fools new album Message-ID: Jon wrote: > Out There Somewhere comes in at 57:33 and Close Your Eyes > is 55:39. According to my copies anyway. That's very odd. Well, probably not to you, but I'm sure I remember the Freak Emporium selling the two albums as a twofer single CD. Perhaps it was only selections from each. Ah well, matters ............ I got that deal. It is the two complete CD's sold as a double for the price of single CD - bit like the Live79/Levitation double pack which came out on Castle records Mark From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Apr 14 17:36:07 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:36:07 -0400 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:56:16 +0200, Bernhard Pospiech wrote: >I am still not sure where this MOTORWAY CITY (family tree) version comes >from > >Dave Brock told me that it is from Stonehenge 1979 > > >Did not know that HAWKWIND played Stonehenge that year > >What was the lineup ?? If anyone's going to the Bedouin gig this saturday in London, they should ask Harvey Bainbridge about this! IF Hawkwind really played Stonehenge in '79, then Harvey definitely would have been the bass player, and I'd have to believe that playing Stonehenge for the first time would be a pretty memorable experience. I would bet that *whatever* the source for this version of "Motorway City" is, that it's the same as the Flicknife version of "Who's Gonna Win The War". This is interesting information, since I really like "Valium Ten" and the other post-Calvert Hawklords recordings. -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 14 17:48:00 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:48:00 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <002201c302c2$a3693d40$883dfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Oh, the iron is still hot, let's have another crack with it... On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > As ever, responses are in the text. Thanks for the indents this time, it helps. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jon Jarrett" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:24 PM > Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album > > > On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > > > > > I think that this particular line of discussion should probably end > here. > > I'd love to know why Colin felt that he should say > > what he did to that. Perhaps it's a joke I'm not getting. It's certainly > > not his call to make. Along similar lines... > > Sorry, I did not realise that I need your permission to make a comment! Are you being deliberately ironic, or do I really need to make clear that I was questioning your right not to post what the hell you like, but to try and shut down others' discussion? > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > > > > > > Hawkethos was not believeable:). Harvey is doing solo work at the > moment (I > > > spoke to him a couple of days ago and he is working on new material). > > > Simon's absence from the tour was for real and valid reasons; he will be > on > > > the album and, all being well, back on stage soon. I do not think that > > > anything on the scale of Hawkwestra will happen but there may well be a > few > > > surprises. > > > > So are you saying that there was no suit and that Nik and Chris > > Hewitt were making the whole thing up? If you aren't, what are you saying? > > Strangely, we have not heard anything more of this suit and neither have > most of the people listed in the Hawkethos post. Draw your own conclusions. Thanks for this. A little unclear as to whom "we" is in this case. Does it include Dave, whom Nik was claimed by hawkethos to have met about this? And, um, what about Dave's suing of Nik? > > Normally I'd preface something like this with a phrase along the > > lines of `I hope you'll forgive me for saying' or some such, but actually > > I won't pretend to care. `This album' has been in the works for five > > years, in the course of which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind > > album (_Spacebrock_) has come out thus using up a precious third of the, > > what, six at most new tracks we've seen the band play in that time. In > > *five years*. > > > > Furthermore, in that time we've seen, um, at least five people > with > > previous writing credits leave the band (though none of them were on the > > last studio album billed as Hawkwind anyway), and Moorcock at least once > > publicly disavow any further involvement with Hawkwind. This bloody album > > could hardly get more unexpected. *If* it finally emerges, which I no > > longer believe anyone saying, I'm sure some people will think it's good, > > but one of the people Brock pays to lie to the fan-base about this is > > not going to be the person whose opinion I trust on this. You can safely > > let me make up my own mind thanks. Yours, > > Jon, when making comments it is rather useful to get one's facts correct, > rather than allowing your own delusions free rein. I am sure that you can > make up your own mind (you seem already to have done so). As usual, your > logic is so flawed as to be amusing. That wasn't logic (because you know what logic is, right?), it was an opinion, but it did contain facts, which you imply, without saying as usual, that I've got wrong. Challenging me on facts can sometimes be a highly effective strategy but not, I think, this time. Let's gather them in. "This album has been in the works" since it was announced that the next project would be on the Death Generator theme, on the old hawkwind.com. That's where I remember it anyway, but in case I was wrong I searched the archives of this list and you'll find it was being talked of as early as August 1998, by Dave Brock, to the US press. See . You'd prefer "four years eight months" instead of "five years" would you? Fine. Last Hawkwind studio album was _Distant Horizons_. My copy says it was recorded 1997, what does yours say? Since then, we've had, from current line-ups, _Hawkwind 1997_ (live and limited), _Hawkwind In Your Area_ (half live, and most studio tracks not with the whole band), _Family Tree_ (not a Hawkwind album), _Spacebrock_ (mostly recycled and with only two current Hawkwind members on it, one of those only on a few tracks) and _Yule Ritual_ and _Canterbury 2001_ (both live). Tell me I missed a studio album in the last nearly *six* years, go on. New tracks, leaving aside stuff released on _In Your Area_: `Anna Seed', `Spacebrock' & `Money Tree', whatever the name of Ron's rework of `The Owl and the Pussycat' was, `Earth Calling' in two different versions and I *think* there was another Ron one about aliens in 1999. That would be seven maximum, and two of those alternative versions of another two. Oh, and `Strange Fruit', sorry, six or eight. I counted six, and one third of those have been issued, `Spacebrock' (and indeed `Money Tree' though in this case the tracks are the same) and `Earth Calling'. People with previous writing credits leaving: Ron Tree, Jerry Richards, Captain Rizz, Simon House, Harvey Bainbridge, Keith Kniveton. Do I need to point out the songs as well? I expect you'll quarrel with the word "leaving" as none of them officially have, indeed the website still thought the line-up was Brock-Chadwick-Tree-Richards when it last had such information, but none of them bar Rizz and possibly Keith will be appearing with the band any time soon I suspect, and that's something one might expect from a band member, really. I'm not going to hunt through for Moorcock's public post supporting Nik and refusing to work with Dave any more, because they don't have searchable archives yet, and there are enough people on this list who did see it at the time. Not the first time he's said he'll never work with Hawkwind before of course and I imagine it won't be the last. But say it he did. In fact, the only fact I'm not sure of here is whether or not Dave pays you. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't, though. Feel free to correct me on that. Not sure which other of my facts you think are deluded though. I have indeed already made up my mind. I've made it up, as I said, to believe only my own eyes and ears about this album. If it finally does emerge and I get it and think it's good you'll see me here saying so, access permitting. If I think otherwise you'll see me saying that too. If my expectations are too high, well, I don't think that's my fault. But currently I don't *expect* to have to test them. Yours again, Jon ObCD: The Heads - _Relaxing With... _ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Mon Apr 14 13:28:18 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:28:18 +0100 Subject: HW: some, OFF: much Message-ID: > The second Nine Invisibles album is a fine dance album, leaves > several of Orbital's ones to stand in the corner, but no, space-rock it > isn't. I'm not convinced Ship of Fools were either, mind, unless > their bass-player woke up a lot live. If they ever gigged. They did gig. I sadly didn't make it to a gig they played in Sheffield (knew people who did go, said they were great) due to going to a friends "band"'s gig the same night. Misplaced loyalty, the friends lot sucked, baiscally, but I'd said I go... From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 14 17:55:16 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:55:16 +0100 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20030213173733.00685a6c@acmenet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Bolts of Ungodly Vision wrote: > Check out cellsum.com for tour dates for > The Brain Surgeons (well, yeah) AS WELL AS > the X Brothers! > Bouchard Dunaway Smith! $ w3m http://www.cellsum.com/Shows.htm " The Brain Surgeons June 6-9 UK TBA " Oh, there's months yet, I know. Just worried about organising crahs space in cities I know almost no-one... Yours, Jon ObCD: The Heads - _Relaxing With... _ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Mon Apr 14 18:24:26 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:24:26 +0100 Subject: OFF: Ship of Fools new album Message-ID: No - it was the two albums as a double CD but for the price of a single CD. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Jarrett" To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:30 PM Subject: Re: OFF: Ship of Fools new album > That's very odd. Well, probably not to you, but I'm sure I > remember the Freak Emporium selling the two albums as a twofer single CD. From jguizar at STNY.RR.COM Mon Apr 14 18:34:20 2003 From: jguizar at STNY.RR.COM (Jerry Guizar) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:34:20 -0400 Subject: OFF: Ship of Fools new album In-Reply-To: <00f701c302cc$00c377e0$9eebfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Mark Von Bargen wrote: > Jon wrote: > > >> Out There Somewhere comes in at 57:33 and Close Your Eyes >>is 55:39. According to my copies anyway. > > > That's very odd. Well, probably not to you, but I'm sure I > remember the Freak Emporium selling the two albums as a twofer single CD. > Perhaps it was only selections from each. Ah well, matters ............ > > I got that deal. It is the two complete CD's sold as a double for the price > of single CD - bit like the Live79/Levitation double pack which came out on > Castle records Mine's from the Dreamtime label (distributed by Music For Nations). There's a light blue bar running across the top right that says '2Cds For A Special Price'. I got it second hand, so I don't know if it's the same thing Freak Emporium had. Jerry From hw at CY-B.ORG Mon Apr 14 19:09:04 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:09:04 -0400 Subject: HW: HAWKFEST UPDATE Message-ID: + ++ +STAR WARRIORS + + + + + HAWKFEST 2003 DETAIL: OPEN TO HAWKWIND PASSPORT HOLDERS ONLY ! HW PASSPORTS ARE TOTALLY FREE !! AND YES - YOU *CAN* SEND IN A PASSPORT APPLICATION FORM WITH YOUR HAWKFEST CHEQUE IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A PASSPORT YET !!! Both will be processed and returned together ! TO APPLY: Print off a passport form from here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/pa_txt.htm fill it out, put it in an envelope with 2 signed photos and send it off to the address on the form - easy as that ! (Don't forget your cheque for HAWKFEST if you want tickets).... HAWKFEST TICKETS ARE ?50 FOR 3 FULL DAYS of bands, camping, and loads of entertainment !!!! (there is a ?3 surcharge for online credit card bookings) FESTIE DETAIL: We have listened to all your comments from last year's event, and you will be pleased that there will be REAL toilets, REAL showers, a launderette, (at least)3 bar areas, more choice of food, mind, body and spirit (green) areas, a tattooist, belly dancing lessons(!)etc. etc. There will also be *two separate stages* this year, as well as a 'jam area' where people can get together and create something unique....... A drum workshop will take place again, and there may be some acoustic sets from various people. . . . . . PLEASE BUY YOUR TICKETS *NOW* TO AVOID ANY DISAPPOINTMENT !! NUMBERS *WILL* HAVE TO BE LIMITED AND ARE ISSUED ON A FIRST-COME-FIRST SERVED BASIS. A lot of people have read all the great the feedback from last year's event and will be sure not to miss this one !! Checkout the info/pix/downloads from Hawkfest 2002: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/gigs/HawkFest/pages/DevonFestInfo.ht m + ++ + + + MESSAGE ENDS + + ++ + + www.hawkwind.com From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Apr 14 19:20:22 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:20:22 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Studio album Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:48:00 +0100, Jon Jarrett wrote: > "This album has been in the works" since it was announced that the >next project would be on the Death Generator theme, on the old >hawkwind.com. That's where I remember it anyway, but in case I was wrong >I searched the archives of this list and you'll find it was being talked >of as early as August 1998, by Dave Brock, to the US press. See >. You'd >prefer "four years eight months" instead of "five years" would you? Fine. Unfortunately, this link wasn't posted on this list (only the Yahoo! one), but this interview with Alan Davey seems to include more "hard facts" about the new album than I've seen from any other source (someone point me to it if there IS a better source of information!). I'm not sure of the date of the interview, but it must be from earlier this year since it refers to the Walthamstow Xmas gig in past tense ... http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/alandaveyint.htm A few highlights: >Music Street Journal: How are things coming along with the new line-up? > >Alan Davey: Yeah, pretty good actually - just getting on with this >album: the one that we started last year. ... so this would seem to indicate that anything recorded prior to 2002 has been scrapped. I would assume that anything close to being finished before then would have come out on Family Tree or Spacebrock (or maybe even Star Nation). >Music Street Journal: Could you tell me something about it? > >Alan Davey: Well, it's all new tunes... Obviously! We're working on a >sort of concept for it, but that isn't finalised yet. We've got loads >of ideas floating around for it. It's about halfway through at the >moment and we did get some stuff to Arthur Brown last week, 'cause he's >going to put some lyrics to it. We're writing songs in conjunction with >Arthur. Actually, for new Hawkwind albums, Alan's first statement is usually not so obvious ;^). But if he's correct, that's a very good thing IMHO ... >Music Street Journal: That sounds promising after what I saw at the Xmas >gig in Walthamstow, London. > >Alan Davey: Yeah, that's a good band at the moment with me, Dave (Brock), >Rich (-drummer Richard Chadwick), Arthur Brown and Tim (Blake). I think >that's going to be the band that's working at the moment. It's a good >line-up. Which would seem to indicate that Huw and Simon *won't* be on the new album? Mission Control (thanks for including navigation links right there on the front page, Rik! Greatly appreciated!) doesn't seem to indicate the full lineup in its' paragraph on the album, but ... "LATEST INFO : The new studio album is about finished now, and Arthur Brown has contributed guest vocals on some tracks, with Lene Lovich also appearing as an android !! A few downloadable clips will appear here in a few days. Also in the immediate pipeline are a few more releases; 'Family Tree 2' and a live release from the 2002 Xmas Party gig at Walthamstow in London, to (possibly) be entitled 'Spaced Out In London'." (HELLO!!! DID EVERYONE NOTICE THE SECOND SENTENCE OF THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH? I don't recall seeing it when I first saw the bit about Lene Lovich, but I could have just been skimming.) Mission Control also says: "LATEST STUFF: + Arthur Brown is currently serving aboard the mothership and will also appear on the new album, and on a live release from the last tour..... Arthur will most likely also be with us on the May dates we are currently arranging." (And back to the Music Street Journal interview - Alan also has some *excellent* observations on singing, and regarding the likes of his & Dave's voices vs. the likes of Arthur Brown's, although he also makes it clear that he's never heard a Z. Vex Woolly Mammoth bass fuzz pedal, or he wouldn't say, "I can tell when people are using distortion on the bass - they've got no bollocks! It's just fuzzy.") > New tracks, leaving aside stuff released on _In Your Area_: `Anna >Seed', `Spacebrock' & `Money Tree', whatever the name of Ron's rework of >`The Owl and the Pussycat' was, `Earth Calling' in two different versions >and I *think* there was another Ron one about aliens in 1999. "Eeda-Karan" or something like that, which was just a spoken bit that included a "genetic engineering" reference - surprise surprise ;^). Is that what you're thinking of? -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Apr 14 20:56:32 2003 From: ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM (Albert Bouchard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:56:32 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, April 14, 2003, at 05:55 PM, Jon Jarrett wrote: > Oh, there's months yet, I know. Just worried about organising > crahs space in cities I know almost no-one... Yours, The fact is that there is now only one possibility for a show in the UK and I'll find out about that sometime this week. Because of the BOC tour the promoter is afraid of alienating UK fans by us playing there at the same time. It seems that many fans plan to go to all or most of the BOC shows and because of the high ticket price will not be able to afford to come to even one of our shows unless it's months away from BOC. We may just end up doing a couple shows in France and the one in Belgium. Sorry. Al From jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM Tue Apr 15 05:03:57 2003 From: jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM (Jerry Kranitz) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:03:57 -0400 Subject: Melodic Energy Commission: New CD + live show Message-ID: Hey folks. I see at the Melodic Energy Commission site that they've got a new CD to be released in May (Time Is A Slippery Concept) and a live show at the Vacouver (Canada) Planetarium on May 4th. Check it out at http://melodicenergy.com. Jerry From petertrance at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 15 05:29:36 2003 From: petertrance at HOTMAIL.COM (PETER WILKINSON) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:29:36 +0000 Subject: HW: HAWKFEST UPDATE Message-ID: RE HAWKFEST. SOUNDING GOOD SO FAR. I AM HOPING TO TAKE A SMALL GROUP OF HAWK FANS (APP.12)THIS YEAR AS PART OF THE YAP PROJECT. AMONG THE GROUP ARE A COULE OF DISABLED. THEREFORE CAN YOU PLEASE COMMENT ON THE FOLLOWING BEFORE WE ORDER TICKETS_- HALF OF US ALREADY HAVE PASSPORTS. *CAN WE PARK CARS NEAR OUR TENTS -IF NOT HOW FAR AWAY?? * ARE WE ABLE TO CAMP ON THURSDAY TO GIVE US CHANCE OF PICKING A SPOT NEARISH TO STAGES AND TOILETS ETC. SORRY TO ASK YOU THIS AS I REALISE YOU MUST BE VERY BUSY SETTING IT UP BUT I AM SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE ARE IMPORTANT TO US. BY THE WAY JUST WHEREABOUTS NEAR GARSTANG IS IT? KEEP ON GROOVIN PETE. >From: Rik Rx >Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List >To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU >Subject: Re: HW: HAWKFEST UPDATE >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:09:04 -0400 > >+ ++ +STAR WARRIORS + + + + + > >HAWKFEST 2003 DETAIL: > >OPEN TO HAWKWIND PASSPORT HOLDERS ONLY ! > >HW PASSPORTS ARE TOTALLY FREE !! AND YES - YOU *CAN* SEND IN A PASSPORT >APPLICATION FORM WITH YOUR HAWKFEST CHEQUE IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A PASSPORT >YET !!! Both will be processed and returned together ! > >TO APPLY: >Print off a passport form from here: >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/pa_txt.htm >fill it out, put it in an envelope with 2 signed photos >and send it off to the address on the form - easy as that ! >(Don't forget your cheque for HAWKFEST if you want tickets).... > >HAWKFEST TICKETS ARE ?50 FOR 3 FULL DAYS of bands, camping, and loads of >entertainment !!!! (there is a ?3 surcharge for online credit card >bookings) > >FESTIE DETAIL: >We have listened to all your comments from last year's event, and you will >be pleased that there will be REAL toilets, REAL showers, a launderette, >(at >least)3 bar areas, more choice of food, mind, body and spirit (green) >areas, >a tattooist, belly dancing lessons(!)etc. etc. > >There will also be *two separate stages* this year, as well as a 'jam area' >where people can get together and create something unique....... A drum >workshop will take place again, and there may be some acoustic sets from >various people. . . . . . > >PLEASE BUY YOUR TICKETS *NOW* TO AVOID ANY DISAPPOINTMENT !! >NUMBERS *WILL* HAVE TO BE LIMITED AND ARE ISSUED ON A FIRST-COME-FIRST >SERVED BASIS. > >A lot of people have read all the great the feedback from last year's event >and will be sure not to miss this one !! > >Checkout the info/pix/downloads from Hawkfest 2002: >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/gigs/HawkFest/pages/DevonFestInfo.ht >m > >+ ++ + + + MESSAGE ENDS + + ++ + + > >www.hawkwind.com _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From Andy.Ball at RD.BBC.CO.UK Tue Apr 15 07:16:15 2003 From: Andy.Ball at RD.BBC.CO.UK (Andy Ball) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:16:15 +0100 Subject: OFF www.ozrics.com? Message-ID: Hi all, This site seems to have been down for a week or two now. Anyone know why? I believe that it was the "official" band website. Cheers, Andy From jswartz at MITRE.ORG Tue Apr 15 08:19:37 2003 From: jswartz at MITRE.ORG (John A. Swartz) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:19:37 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! Message-ID: Geez, I don't know about this promoter. You'd think most BOC fans would be very excited to see both BOC and tBS within a short span of time, and would be more than willing to pay the extra price to also see a tBS show. Is money that tight over there that fans of both bands wouldn't come out to see both? What if these fans happen to like OTHER bands and are already planning on seeing them in the same timeframe? Sorry to hear of these kinds of troubles, Albert - it's not like you get to play the UK every day... John > > The fact is that there is now only one possibility for a show in the UK > and I'll find out about that sometime this week. Because of the BOC > tour the promoter is afraid of alienating UK fans by us playing there > at the same time. It seems that many fans plan to go to all or most of > the BOC shows and because of the high ticket price will not be able to > afford to come to even one of our shows unless it's months away from > BOC. We may just end up doing a couple shows in France and the one in > Belgium. Sorry. > Al From cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET Tue Apr 15 10:41:22 2003 From: cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET (cosmicdolphin) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:41:22 +0100 Subject: OFF www.ozrics.com? Message-ID: > Hi all, > > This site seems to have been down for a week or two now. > Anyone know why? I believe that it was the "official" band website. > > Cheers, > > Andy It doesn't look like it will be back up, Ozrics are looking around for a new designer for the website. Mike Wernings long standing Ozrics site is getting used as semi-0fficial mouthpiece for the band as it was prior to the existance of Ozrics.com http://www.geocities.com/ozrictentacles_web/ Mikes site is still implying that Ozrics will not be doing the gig with the Hawks. Rich W From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Tue Apr 15 10:54:46 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:54:46 -0300 Subject: Gig Reminder: The One Eyed Bishops: 4/18/03 Message-ID: Gig Reminder: The One Eyed Bishops @ Borders Books & Music, Mays Landing, NJ Friday, April 18th Time 8:00 PM complete show. FREE!!!! see details@ http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com Feature article about the band to appear in Atlantic City Press entertainment section on Friday. www.pressofatlanticcity.com Cheers! The OEBs From blackblade at BHALLIGAN.COM Tue Apr 15 15:14:17 2003 From: blackblade at BHALLIGAN.COM (Brian Halligan) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:14:17 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Beach Party UK In-Reply-To: <3E9BF8D9.74AADF7D@mitre.org> Message-ID: That stinks about the UK shows. Seeing the live versions of the new-fangled Medusa and Siege alone would be worth the price of the ticket. Luckily, they're on Beach Party so if you can't see the Surgeons live at least you can still hear these great takes--as well as the mandolin-fired Red & the Black, Niagara Falls and Date With a Guitar. The new songs on the CD are my favorites though: Naked if I Want To kicks off the album a cappella, just like Biloxi did for Piece of Work (except I like this song better). State of Emergency would have fit right in on Box of Hammers, with its distorted guitars, catchy chorus and undulating bass line. It's also one of only two new songs written by Al and Deb. The other is Stealin' Thing, which includes Helen Wheels. Krakatoa is sludgier, but still singable. Although it's always a little strange to hear yourself singing Meltzer's lyrics. In a good way, of course! Stealin' Thing has some cool percussion frothing underneath the strong vocals and lead guitar. Whatever Works is the Surgeons getting full-on funky, with Joe on vocals and horns. You can tell everyone had fun recording it. I hope it's on the set list for the Upstate NY gigs! (I know, we're spoiled.) Gas Hog is straight-up surf rock, complete with cowabunga! drumming and muscle-car sound effects. By the way, if you like that kind of thing, and '50s rock in general, check out The Hi-Risers http://www.hirisers.com/ Pissin' Away the Summer closes out the album with a laid-back vibe. "Pissin' away the summer, tryin' to forget you." This and Gas Hog tuck the album back into the Beach Party theme. This Surgeon album's an interesting mix of old (but different) and new. It's a lot like a Hawkwind album that way.... Anyway, Beach Party's a great listen and it's gonna stay in my player at least as long as the sun's out. Or the surf's up. Brian From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Apr 15 17:11:13 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:11:13 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: > Are you being deliberately ironic, or do I really need to make > clear that I was questioning your right not to post what the hell you > like, but to try and shut down others' discussion? Call it deliberate irony if you want to; perhaps with a little thought you might arrive at the reason for the post. > > Strangely, we have not heard anything more of this suit and neither have > > most of the people listed in the Hawkethos post. Draw your own conclusions. > > Thanks for this. A little unclear as to whom "we" is in this > case. Does it include Dave, whom Nik was claimed by hawkethos to have met > about this? "We" is Hawkwind and its management, which obviously includes Dave; as I said, Hawkwethos was not believable. I seem to remember that Lemmy was one of those named as suing Dave; a few weeks later the band were invited to play with Motorhead at Wembley...as I said, draw your own conclusions. > And, um, what about Dave's suing of Nik? Dave did not sue Nik; Hawkwind took legal action against Nik to prevent him from using the name. This was done for a range of reasons. Also, this is not connected to the supposed suit against Dave so would appear to be immaterial here. > > > Normally I'd preface something like this with a phrase along the > > > lines of `I hope you'll forgive me for saying' or some such, but actually > > > I won't pretend to care. `This album' has been in the works for five > > > years, in the course of which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind > > > album (_Spacebrock_) has come out thus using up a precious third of the, > > > what, six at most new tracks we've seen the band play in that time. In > > > *five years*. > > > > > > Furthermore, in that time we've seen, um, at least five people > > with > > > previous writing credits leave the band (though none of them were on the > > > last studio album billed as Hawkwind anyway), and Moorcock at least once > > > publicly disavow any further involvement with Hawkwind. This bloody album > > > could hardly get more unexpected. *If* it finally emerges, which I no > > > longer believe anyone saying, I'm sure some people will think it's good, > > > but one of the people Brock pays to lie to the fan-base about this is > > > not going to be the person whose opinion I trust on this. You can safely > > > let me make up my own mind thanks. Yours, > > > > Jon, when making comments it is rather useful to get one's facts correct, > > rather than allowing your own delusions free rein. I am sure that you can > > make up your own mind (you seem already to have done so). As usual, your > > logic is so flawed as to be amusing. > > That wasn't logic (because you know what logic is, right?), it was > an opinion, but it did contain facts, which you imply, without saying as > usual, that I've got wrong. Challenging me on facts can sometimes be a > highly effective strategy but not, I think, this time. Let's gather them > in. Yes, I do know what logic is. Despite the fact that Birkbeck beat Cranfield in the final of University Challenge, the latter institution, among others, still does some excellent and rigourous academic work, much of which involves an understanding of logic. I quote your comment: "in the course of which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind album (_Spacebrock_) has come out thus using up a precious third of the, what, six at most new tracks we've seen the band play in that time." This is deeply flawed; albums do not "use up" new tracks. New tracks may appear on particular albums or they may not. Some of the, admittedly, very few new tracks played in the last few years did also appear on Spacebrock; does that have any impact on anything else? > "This album has been in the works" since it was announced that the > next project would be on the Death Generator theme, on the old > hawkwind.com. That's where I remember it anyway, but in case I was wrong > I searched the archives of this list and you'll find it was being talked > of as early as August 1998, by Dave Brock, to the US press. See > . You'd > prefer "four years eight months" instead of "five years" would you? Fine. > > Last Hawkwind studio album was _Distant Horizons_. My copy says it > was recorded 1997, what does yours say? Since then, we've had, from > current line-ups, _Hawkwind 1997_ (live and limited), _Hawkwind In Your > Area_ (half live, and most studio tracks not with the whole band), _Family > Tree_ (not a Hawkwind album), _Spacebrock_ (mostly recycled and with only > two current Hawkwind members on it, one of those only on a few tracks) and > _Yule Ritual_ and _Canterbury 2001_ (both live). Tell me I missed a > studio album in the last nearly *six* years, go on. Jon, you appear to be going off on a wild goose chase yet again by replying to arguments that I have not put forward. > New tracks, leaving aside stuff released on _In Your Area_: `Anna > Seed', `Spacebrock' & `Money Tree', whatever the name of Ron's rework of > `The Owl and the Pussycat' was, `Earth Calling' in two different versions > and I *think* there was another Ron one about aliens in 1999. That would > be seven maximum, and two of those alternative versions of another > two. Oh, and `Strange Fruit', sorry, six or eight. I counted six, and one > third of those have been issued, `Spacebrock' (and indeed `Money Tree' > though in this case the tracks are the same) and `Earth Calling'. Your point being? Apart, that is, from the creation of yet more non-existent arguments. > > People with previous writing credits leaving: Ron Tree, Jerry > Richards, Captain Rizz, Simon House, Harvey Bainbridge, Keith Kniveton. Do > I need to point out the songs as well? I expect you'll quarrel with the > word "leaving" as none of them officially have, indeed the website still > thought the line-up was Brock-Chadwick-Tree-Richards when it last had such > information, but none of them bar Rizz and possibly Keith will be > appearing with the band any time soon I suspect, and that's something one > might expect from a band member, really. Although this has no relation to my comment, I will state here that you are wrong on at least one of the people you name as having left. However, once again, I would enquire as to the point of your list. > I'm not going to hunt through for > Moorcock's public post supporting Nik and refusing to work with Dave any > more, because they don't have searchable archives yet, and there are > enough people on this list who did see it at the time. Not the first time > he's said he'll never work with Hawkwind before of course and I imagine it > won't be the last. But say it he did. Mike has said that he does not want to be involved in working with any Hawkwind related bands; this also appears (more recently) on his site. I would not take everything that Michael says as being literal truth, however, for a range of reasons, none of which reflect badly on him. > > In fact, the only fact I'm not sure of here is whether or not Dave > pays you. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't, though. Feel free to > correct me on that. Not sure which other of my facts you think are deluded > though. > Jon, do you really think that, in your words, there are "people Brock pays to lie to the fan-base about this"? I would suggest that is delusional. > I have indeed already made up my mind. I've made it up, as I said, > to believe only my own eyes and ears about this album. If it finally does > emerge and I get it and think it's good you'll see me here saying so, > access permitting. If I think otherwise you'll see me saying that too. If > my expectations are too high, well, I don't think that's my fault. But > currently I don't *expect* to have to test them. Yours again, > Jon For a moment, I thought that I would be able to congratulate you on your open-mindedness, but then I read to the end of the paragraph. Basically, your position appears to be that you are upset that Hawkwind have: 1. Not released a studio album for a long time. 2. Not kept the fans up to date with what is going on with the album. On point 1, I agree that it has been far too long since an album was released; however, your view that there will not be an album is an illogical extension of your disappointment. On point 2, I agree that information has not always been updated as regularly as it could have been. However, once information appears, your reaction is to denigrate the information; where is the logic in that? Strangely, many of our views are not that far apart; you just seem to be obsessed with replying to arguments that have not been made. Colin > ObCD: The Heads - _Relaxing With... _ > -- > "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine > law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient > to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the > delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) > From imaginos at PAVILION.CO.UK Tue Apr 15 17:32:38 2003 From: imaginos at PAVILION.CO.UK (Jason Gool) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:32:38 +0100 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! In-Reply-To: <3E9BF8D9.74AADF7D@mitre.org> Message-ID: I don't think its the price of the tickets that's the problem. Its just that a lot of the BOC fans here have made their plans of where and when they're going to see the band and bought their tickets (me included). If tBS gig collides with a BOC gig, those who've already planned to go and see BOC will stick with that, meaning that tBS might not be well attended. If tBS played here only a week or two after BOC was here I think a lot of people will go see 'em, I certainly would. Jas. > Geez, I don't know about this promoter. You'd think most BOC fans would > be very excited to see both BOC and tBS within a short span of time, and > would be more than willing to pay the extra price to also see a tBS > show. Is money that tight over there that fans of both bands wouldn't > come out to see both? What if these fans happen to like OTHER bands and > are already planning on seeing them in the same timeframe? > > Sorry to hear of these kinds of troubles, Albert - it's not like you get > to play the UK every day... > > John > > > > > The fact is that there is now only one possibility for a show in the UK > > and I'll find out about that sometime this week. Because of the BOC > > tour the promoter is afraid of alienating UK fans by us playing there > > at the same time. It seems that many fans plan to go to all or most of > > the BOC shows and because of the high ticket price will not be able to > > afford to come to even one of our shows unless it's months away from > > BOC. We may just end up doing a couple shows in France and the one in > > Belgium. Sorry. > > Al > From ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Apr 15 19:13:19 2003 From: ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM (Albert Bouchard) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:13:19 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! In-Reply-To: <3E9C8886.12169.AF8A1114@localhost> Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 15, 2003, at 05:32 PM, Jason Gool wrote: > If tBS gig collides with a BOC gig, those who've already > planned to go and see BOC will stick with that, meaning that tBS > might not be well attended. If tBS played here only a week or two > after BOC was here I think a lot of people will go see 'em, I certainly > would. Mick Brown said that he has received only negative responses from Ralf and other BOC fans and that "for budgetary or work reasons, the Brain Surgeons dates have to be moved a significent distance from the BOC shows in order for people to be able to attend." Most clubs are not interested in shows after June 30th so it looks like we'll have to try again in the fall. Hey, it doesn't matter to me. It's just that I have to go through other people to get gigs over there and this is what they tell me. If you think you could make a show before June 30th and you have a preference email Mick and suggest it to him. He's really trying to do me a big favor setting this all up. :-( From paul.gittins at SKIPTON.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 04:24:45 2003 From: paul.gittins at SKIPTON.CO.UK (Paul G) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:24:45 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! Message-ID: I feel I have to respond to Albert's comments. Seems to me like Mr Brown is blaming the "failure" of the tBS mini-tour on the UK fans, when he should be looking a little closer to home .... I'm in touch with 30+ UK-based fans, and few, if any, have ever heard of (or from) Mr Brown. He's also made absolutely no attempt to make contact through the places where BOC fans congregate - BDTE, J&A's, AOL boards. It wouldn't have been that hard for him to make these plans MUCH more widely known - or to canvass views from the people who might actually want to attend .... Rumours of the tBS tour started to surface just about the time that BOC tickets were starting to go on sale. A LOT of us tried to get further details of dates and venues before committing to BOC, but details were only ever sketchy - "dates around 6-9 June, possible shows in Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle ...." However, 6-9 June is the weekend in the middle of the BOC tour, and a lot of fans were already planning to take this opportunity to see multiple shows around that time. Finally, I heave heard that Mr Brown was concerned that few BOC fans attended the Alice Cooper convention that BDS played last year. As one who was there, I strongly believe that this was largely down to the poor publicity for that event. It seems to me that one sure way of boosting attendances for a tBS show / tour / convention would be to use the upcoming BOC shows to help spread the word - leafletting, word of mouth, whatever. I would love to see tBS over here .... but please don't blame me for not committing to a very vague proposition from a promoter who doesn't really seem to want to promote .....! From si at SICKTHINGSUK.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 05:49:47 2003 From: si at SICKTHINGSUK.CO.UK (Si Halley) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:49:47 +0100 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! Message-ID: Subject: Re: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! > Finally, I heave heard that Mr Brown was concerned that few BOC fans > attended the Alice Cooper convention that BDS played last year. As one who > was there, I strongly believe that this was largely down to the poor > publicity for that event. I`m sorry, but I have to take issue with this. I`m talking specifically about the convention here. I had no direct part in the BDS shows in Camden and Stourbridge that preceeded it. Firstly, the event wasn`t a BOC event, so pubicity was aimed squarely at ALICE fans (Joe was fine with this). I DID post info to this list, and also the official BOC news mailing list which Melne forwarded to the membership. I have no access or knowledge of any aol lists and it was never suggested to us that there was an outlet there. I DID ask when I posted here that the message be forwarded to any other outlets I didn`t know about. There was also a website (www.sickcon.co.uk still there which tons of photos, some video and stuff of the event), listed in all publicity, with full details. Maybe if the BOC fans had been more responsive either here or via private email, they could have helped publicise Joe`s first UK performances in years. You have no idea how hard we tried to get publicity for the event. The very fact that we got Joe, Neal and Dennis LIVE on BBC radio(which I announced on this list) for an hour of interviews and music was, I think, pretty good! We tried for Total Rock but they wouldn`t respond to us. Classic Rock wouldn`t respond to us. Metal Hammer, Kerrang, etc... Secondly, we sent publicity info out to every rock music news source we could find including photos, history, bios etc. Quite a few online news sources ran the story but the paper press totally ignored us (with the excpetion of Record Collector and Powerplay) despite phone calls and emails trying to get them interested. We spent 9 months trying to organise the convention and ended up with an almost sold out event. Obviously enough people knew about it. If you are refering to lack of paid adverts in magazines like Kerrang and Classic Rock, we simply couldn`t afford them. Advertising costs tons of money, even for small adverts. We didn`t have that money to pay 100`s of pounds for small adverts after agreeing payment with the band, especially as we didn`t think such adverts would make much difference (they didn`t as we were close to a sell-out). In fact verbally Kerrang eventually promised us a FREE advert and we designed one to their sizes and sent it through to them, only for them to withdraw the offer. This was a fan organised event for charity and as such the initial money was coming straight out of the organisers own pocket. We lost ?xxxx (yes four figures) on the show, yet we STILL paid the band and honoured our pledge to give a percentage of money to charity, and are STILL looking into Sickcon2, aiming at Oct this year. >It seems to me that one sure way of boosting > attendances for a tBS show / tour / convention would be to use the upcoming > BOC shows to help spread the word - leafletting, word of mouth, whatever. I agree. Word of mouth and mailing list posts assured the Alice event went well. However we had the problem that Alice toured AFTER the convention so leefleting wasn`t any good. Also, it costs money of course and the return isn`t great. Example: there was an Alice related show a couple of years ago. Thousands of flyers were handed out directly before at the Alice show just round the corner. It was in local papers, national press and everything. Attendance was very low. I`m afraid that the bottom line is that while Alice/BOC are still well know, with a resonable fan base, even much of that fan base only knows the main acts. Few outside the hardcore fans on the internet knew BDS existed. I`m afraid the same is true with The Brain Surgeons as they also have no product released in this country and there is no UK record company support to a tour. While not directly involved with TBS tour, I'd LOVE to see Al and company in the UK having bought all the albums (except the new one so far) direct from the US. But Mick Brown needs to be able to make money bringing them over. When Al first mailed me about a possible tBS tour and convention, we called around the obvious UK venues and many simply wouldn`t even talk to me about it!!! I couldn`t believe it!! However I`m sure Mick (he is a GOOD guy) has the same problem. It`s sad, but TBS have no name recognition over here outside the hardcore. Same as BDS who`s shows were very poorly attended, except for the convention of course. > I would love to see tBS over here .... but please don't blame me for not > committing to a very vague proposition from a promoter who doesn't really > seem to want to promote .....! There was nothing for you to commit to! You can`t promote until you have dates fixed. While I have a little inside knowledge, I *DON'T* know the specifics of this particular tour, But if you can`t get the dates acceptable to both bands, venues and promotor, there`s nothing to promote. If Mick had given you dates, and they turned out they were wrong, you`d have complained about that, having made arrangements to be there. Mick is one man, trying to make a profit by doing what you want and helping bring tBS to the UK. I`m sure that if you have a venue, willing to pay enough to cover costs (food, hotels, travel, publicity etc) in the time frame he`d LOVE to hear from you (as would I for possible future things). For the Alice convention we had fans volenteering to print up their own flyers and distribute them, they put banners on their web pages, they made suggestions, called into Alice phone-in`s to mention the convention(even US ones!). To organise a tour with an 'unknown' band is very difficult in the UK without relatively big money which we, or Mick, don`t have. Even with Al kindly dropping fees to a minimum and being as helpful as possible, the venues still need to know they`ll make money and the promotor has to be sure he also doesn`t lose. That means operating on a shoestring. tBS WILL get to the UK I'm sure. But the time has to be right for all concerned. I`m sorry if this seems like I`m having a go at you (it`s not my intention), but I think that the fact we, as Alice fans, managed to get Neal Smith, Dennis Dunaway and Michael Bruce (and Joe of course) on one stage in the UK for the first time in 30 years to a near sell-out crowd was a major achievement and dispite losing a ton of money, I am immensely proud to have been involved in the event which was a HUGE success on all but a financial level. best wishes Si From paul.gittins at SKIPTON.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 07:38:36 2003 From: paul.gittins at SKIPTON.CO.UK (Paul G) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 07:38:36 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! Message-ID: Si, First an apology. Please excuse my comment, which was written in the heat of the moment, and without the detailed knowledge of the large amount of work which you clearly put in to Sickcon 1. And the main thrust of my message wasn?t supposed to be directed at you; so sorry! But the fact remains that one of the reasons I?ve been given (admittedly, at second hand) for the tBS tour falling apart is that the promoter was concerned about the small number of BOC fans at Sickcon. And I would take issue with that for a couple of reasons: - You said yourself that the publicity for Sickcon was geared towards Alice fans; - The disparity in numbers between those BOC fans who were at Crewe, and those on the very well attended BOC UK tour last year, suggests that the vast majority are not active at the various BOC forums (fora?!) on the ?net. This suggests to me that the 'net isn't necessarily the best way to get through to a lot of fans; but that there is an "unrepeatable" opportunity to get at a lot of BOC fans based around the BOC shows. And I?m sure that many of those of us who are active on the ?net would be prepared to help ? I certainly would. Although whether a BOC convention could ever be viable on a ?commercial? scale is has to be open to question; you?ve said that you lost money on Sickcon, and Alice has a much bigger population of fans to draw on than BOC has. But wouldn?t it be fun if it came off ...??! From si at SICKTHINGSUK.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 08:13:48 2003 From: si at SICKTHINGSUK.CO.UK (Si Halley) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:13:48 +0100 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! Message-ID: > First an apology. Please excuse my comment, which was written in the heat > of the moment, and without the detailed knowledge of the large amount of > work which you clearly put in to Sickcon 1. And the main thrust of my > message wasn't supposed to be directed at you; so sorry! \No problem. I didn`t take it personally. > But the fact remains that one of the reasons I've been given (admittedly, > at second hand) for the tBS tour falling apart is that the promoter was > concerned about the small number of BOC fans at Sickcon. Ok. But I`ll admit I haven`t heard anything like that. It would seem odd, as the promotor didn`t organise that event and it wasn`t aimed at BOC fans. However Mick`s viewpoint is oviously his to have. >And I would take > issue with that for a couple of reasons: > > - You said yourself that the publicity for Sickcon was geared towards Alice > fans; Very much so. It was specifically an Alice event. > - The disparity in numbers between those BOC fans who were at Crewe, and > those on the very well attended BOC UK tour last year, suggests that the > vast majority are not active at the various BOC forums (fora?!) on the 'net. That`s true of Alice fans too(he plays Wembley Arena/NEC size places remember). Unfortunatly (fortunatly?) the internet is now the primary source of information on bands who most printed media won`t cover. > This suggests to me that the 'net isn't necessarily the best way to get > through to a lot of fans; but that there is an "unrepeatable" opportunity > to get at a lot of BOC fans based around the BOC shows. I agree totally in theory. Unfortunatly often the return for leafleting doesn`t justify the outlay cost. Just in my experience. > And I'm sure that > many of those of us who are active on the 'net would be prepared to help - > I certainly would. Cool. Mail Mick. He`s the one to talk to. > Although whether a BOC convention could ever be viable on a "commercial" > scale is has to be open to question; Agreed. But we`re not talking big bucks here. For the Alice Convention, we simply look to not LOSE money. We do it for the fun. We did Sickcon1 because WE wanted to see Neal and Dennis on stage. Simple as that. > you've said that you lost money on > Sickcon, and Alice has a much bigger population of fans to draw on than BOC > has. I should think that`s correct, yes. And this is the problem. You see a lot of people at shows, but only a small percentage are die-hard fans who would travel from all around the country for a show. This is what we found with Sickcon. The Convention worked because 1) we announced it early and 2) it was a special event with lots of other stuff happening(bands, Mike Bruce, signings, video), not just a gig in a small club. That made a big difference. >But wouldn't it be fun if it came off ...??! Absolutely. I`d love a BOC convention with tBS headlining. Sickcon1 was one of the best days of my life. I got to stand on stage and introduce three of my heroes, to an audience, many of whom shared my view. And on top of that BDS where spectacularly good!! Our problem is how to top last year as we don`t know that it`s possible! Si From jswartz at MITRE.ORG Wed Apr 16 08:45:06 2003 From: jswartz at MITRE.ORG (John A. Swartz) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:45:06 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Beach Party Message-ID: I haven't chimed in much about *Beach Party*, so since there is some discussion here now, I'll throw in my $0.27 (or, "my 2 cents", adjusted for inflation): While there's good stuff here, I prefer the old tBS, circa *Trepanation* and *Box of Hammers*. I realize that times change, and Pete and Billy (RIP) are no longer with the band. The remaining original 3 members (hey, we've got "3OC", should we call you guys "3BS"?) form a tight sound, and there is no question that they've grown musically - but I'm a big fan of that "wall of guitars" sound from the earlier albums. > Seeing the live versions of the new-fangled > Medusa and Siege alone would be worth the price of the ticket. Luckily, > they're on Beach Party so if you can't see the Surgeons live at least you > can still hear these great takes--as well as the mandolin-fired Red & the > Black, Niagara Falls and Date With a Guitar. "Siege..." alone is worth the price of this disc - the song crunches almost as hard as the Imaginos version, and Albert does a fantastic job with the vocals. "Medusa" sounds good - the intro really threw me. "tR&tB" - amazing how much mileage this song has gotten - from SFG doing "I'm on the Lamb...", BOC's versions of "IotL", "tR&tB", and "Mes Dames Serat" on the remaster, all the way to tBS on *Beach Party* and BOC on the *A Long Days Night* DVD. The *Beach Party* version stacks up well with all of 'em. "Niagara Falls" is fine, but with it on both the Helen Wheels *Archetype* and the *To Helen With Love* tribute album, I'm not sure this was needed. "Date With a Guitar", unfortunately, to my ears, doesn't work - again, maybe I just long for the crunchy guitars of the original. > > The new songs on the CD are my favorites though: > > Naked if I Want To kicks off the album a cappella, just like Biloxi did for > Piece of Work (except I like this song better). Interesting song - the harmonization is sweet. > > State of Emergency would have fit right in on Box of Hammers, with its > distorted guitars, catchy chorus and undulating bass line. It's also one of > only two new songs written by Al and Deb. The other is Stealin' Thing, which > includes Helen Wheels. State of Emergency - yes, now this is sweet. A throwback to "classic" tBS. I like Deb's vocals on this - not quite enough "nastiness" overall on this album from Deb (previous examples include "Last Angry Woman" on PoW, "Gun" on BoH, "Gimme Nothin'" on Trepanation, or "Time Will Take Care of You" on Eponymous). > > Krakatoa is sludgier, but still singable. Although it's always a little > strange to hear yourself singing Meltzer's lyrics. In a good way, of course! Indeed - I like this song. Love that swampy bass part! > > Stealin' Thing has some cool percussion frothing underneath the strong > vocals and lead guitar. Got to listen to this one some more. I don't have any particular impressions of it (yet). > > Whatever Works is the Surgeons getting full-on funky, with Joe on vocals and > horns. You can tell everyone had fun recording it. I hope it's on the set > list for the Upstate NY gigs! (I know, we're spoiled.) My favorite track on the album! Not that it comes anywhere close to "wall of guitars" tBS, but I like a little funkiness, and this one is sweet. A feelin' good tune that would sound good at any "Beach Party". > > Gas Hog is straight-up surf rock, complete with cowabunga! drumming and > muscle-car sound effects. By the way, if you like that kind of thing, and > '50s rock in general, check out The Hi-Risers http://www.hirisers.com/ Yep - I could see this as a sort of extended jamming tune. > > Pissin' Away the Summer closes out the album with a laid-back vibe. "Pissin' > away the summer, tryin' to forget you." This and Gas Hog tuck the album back > into the Beach Party theme. I heard a Joe B. demo of this a few years back (the demo was circa 1980?). tBS version is a bit more laid back, and has some nice vocals. Overall, a solid effort - a bit mellower than previous releases, but sometimes it's nice to kick back a bit - beach party indeed! John From Jason.Scruton at DFA.STATE.NY.US Wed Apr 16 09:15:54 2003 From: Jason.Scruton at DFA.STATE.NY.US (Scruton, Jason) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:15:54 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Beach Party Message-ID: >While there's good stuff here, I prefer the old tBS, circa *Trepanation* >and *Box of Hammers*. I realize that times change, and Pete and Billy >(RIP) are no longer with the band. The remaining original 3 members >(hey, we've got "3OC", should we call you guys "3BS"?) Hmmm, I think that would require having a former member of Richie Blackmore's Rainbow in the band. (On the wattlist, a discussion of Richie's fans came up at a gig of his with his new medieval music -- the 'hardcore' were all dressed in garb typically at a Renaissance Fair. hehee! Makes you long for Smoke on the Water, doesn't it?) >"Siege..." alone is worth the price of this disc - >"tR&tB" - amazing how much mileage this song has gotten - Amen, Brother about "Siege..." The first time I heard it live was one of the heaviest moments in my concert-going life, until the hijinks the next night at Seneca Falls. "The Red and the Black" is still in the Mike Watt and the Secondmen's set-list, but with a Hammond organ instead of a guitar. hootpage.com has their itinerary. >sure this was needed. "Date With a Guitar", unfortunately, to my ears, >doesn't work - again, maybe I just long for the crunchy guitars of the >original. What stuck out most about this song is how that evil lil' prog rock 'stumble' before the chorus on BoH was changed round completely. Is there such a thing as a "wall of guitar" sound? > Stealin' Thing has some cool percussion frothing underneath the strong > vocals and lead guitar. >Got to listen to this one some more. I don't have any particular >impressions of it (yet). The piano figure reminds me of the piano after the bass solo/"b'boom boom chica" section in the Stones' "Stray Cat Blues." > beach party indeed! I wonder if we could cajole tBS into starting their sets with the theme-song to Beach Blanket Bingo, or maybe a Beach Boys song... (Has their ever been a punk-ish version of "Good Vibrations?") (what the hell is in my coffee today?) Jason From neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM Wed Apr 16 10:02:02 2003 From: neil.shilladay at MICROLISE.COM (Neil Shilladay) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:02:02 +0100 Subject: HW:Spring tour - Nottingham Message-ID: Just booked my ticket for Nottingham, and as far as Rock City are concerned, Ozrics are still the support act. Cheers Neil. From beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 16 10:21:24 2003 From: beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Allen) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:21:24 +0100 Subject: BOC : What are they playing this month? Message-ID: Anyone caught BOC in the past few weeks? What are they playing? A good friend of mine, a BOC virgin, is joining with me at one of their UK shows and I'd like to make her a CD of the tracks she's most likely to hear. Chris. From paul.gittins at SKIPTON.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 10:35:04 2003 From: paul.gittins at SKIPTON.CO.UK (Paul G) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:35:04 -0400 Subject: BOC : What are they playing this month? Message-ID: Suggest you have a look at Ralph Whaley's website .... setlists for all 2003 shows are shown here: http://www.macdigital-uk.com/boc/giglopaedia/2003_setlists.htm Some quite big changes since last year's UK tour .... From AgentOF at AOL.COM Wed Apr 16 10:36:49 2003 From: AgentOF at AOL.COM (Chuck Saden) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:36:49 EDT Subject: BOC : What are they playing this month? Message-ID: Songs in the setlist that are different include: Divine Wind Perfect Water Shooting Shark I Love The Night Tattoo Vampire Dr. Music Have also heard Harvester of Eyes Buck's Boogie Dominance and Submission Pocket Dance of Stilts and all the regulars. You could possibly hear many more of the 30 or so that have been rotating. From tojackso at LIBRARY.SYR.EDU Wed Apr 16 10:43:45 2003 From: tojackso at LIBRARY.SYR.EDU (Ted Jackson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:43:45 EDT Subject: BOC : What are they playing this month? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16 Apr 2003 at 15:21, Chris Allen wrote: > Anyone caught BOC in the past few weeks? > What are they playing? > > A good friend of mine, a BOC virgin, is joining with me at one of > their UK shows and I'd like to make her a CD of the tracks she's most > likely to hear. > > Chris. Here's a set list from last month's gig at Toad's Place: Dr. Music Summer of Love ETI Dance on Stilts Harvester of Eyes Perfect Water Tatoo Vampire Shooting Shark Divine Wind Cities on Flame Burnin For You Godzilla DFTR Encores: Golden Age of Leather Black Blade Nice to see some dif. tunes on there, although they could've left off Dr. Music! theo From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Wed Apr 16 11:50:58 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:50:58 -0300 Subject: One Eyed Bishops and/or SLOTERDIJK @ UK Summer Festival(s) which one? Message-ID: The One Eyed Bishops: UK Summer Festival News The One Eyed Bishops are booked for 'The Great British R&B Festival, in Colne Lancashire. Our show is on Saturday, August 24, 2003 @ The Crown Hotel, Colne Time 7:30-8:30 PM visit www.bluesfestival.co.uk for a look at last year's website. Although it has not been updated yet, most of the info is still pertinent, like camping etc. As many of you may know, Hawkwind are organizing their second annual summer 'Hawkfestival', this time around Blackpool and scheduled for August, 8th, 9th & 10th. See: www.Hawkwind.com We are as yet unsure as to whether or not we will be invited to play this year. We have offered to do a show either as SLOTERDIJK or The One Eyed Bishops, whichever Hawkwind prefers. If Hawkwind invites us and confirms an appearance of either band, we will likely have to cancel our show in Colne on the 24th. What we are really trying to say, is that we can't do both gigs, because of time, money & travel, so we are waiting to see what happens. At this moment our show in Colne is 100% confirmed. If you prefer to see us at the Hawkfestival, then you would be best to drop them a line, as we need to sort this out within a month or so. Also let them know which band you prefer; SLOTERDIJK or The OEBs Here is the contact e-mail for the Hawkfest: management at Hawkwind.com Drop them a line with your thoughts. Once again, if we don't see you at the Hawkfest, we'll see you at The R&B Fest!!! Check them both out!!!! Cheers! The OEBs http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Wed Apr 16 13:02:13 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:02:13 -0300 Subject: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] One Eyed Bishops and/or SLOTERDIJK @ UK Summer Festival(s) Message-ID: I realize this reply comes directly on the heals of the announcement just made, but within the last 10 minutes we received a note from Hawkwind inviting SLOTERDIJK to perform at the Hawkfestival. We warmly accepted the invite and so when official slots & schedules become available, you'll get all that info from www.Hawkwind.com. There is a link on the bottom right of their homepage that says 'Hawkfest 2003' At this point the fate of our show in Colne is in the air. I may pass the gig on to another act or cancel. So, if you want to see us in the UK this summer, best to plan on attending the Hawkfestival. Remember, this is a private event, and requires the acquisition of a 'Hawkwind Passport' as a pre-requisite for entry. All that can be sorted via: www.Hawkwind.com Cheers & Peace! Mike Burro (SLOTERDIJK) ----- Original Message ----- From: Burro Mike Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:52 PM To: boc-l at listserv.spc.edu; hawkwind at yahoogroups.com; sloterdijk-pod at yahoogroups.com; spunkmesiter at aol.com; tkperkins at earthlink.net; drehner at head-cfa.harvard.edu; ed at riverrats.net; hickam at clas.net; dreamwnd at apci.net; JVK at mac.com; rbose at talk21.com; livemusicmagazine at hotmail.com; warrendavis180 at msn.com; jmp at monitor.net; p.addison at t-online.de; barry at burbs.co.uk; webmaster at ukbands.net; perone.1 at osu.edu; Jay at struzzin.com; webmaster at bluesmatters.com; john at space-rock.co.uk; info at the-rocker.co.uk; mail at spitz.co.uk; headsmithuk at yahoo.co.uk; Bigpawsrecords at aol.com; rustic-rod at freecall-uk.co.uk; BCRich78 at comcast.net; RobinjED at manchuk.freeserve.co.uk; kim at blissaquamarine.net Subject: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] One Eyed Bishops and/or SLOTERDIJK @ UK Summer Festival(s) which one? The One Eyed Bishops: UK Summer Festival News The One Eyed Bishops are booked for 'The Great British R&B Festival, in Colne Lancashire. Our show is on Saturday, August 24, 2003 @ The Crown Hotel, Colne Time 7:30-8:30 PM visit www.bluesfestival.co.uk for a look at last year's website. Although it has not been updated yet, most of the info is still pertinent, like camping etc. As many of you may know, Hawkwind are organizing their second annual summer 'Hawkfestival', this time around Blackpool and scheduled for August, 8th, 9th & 10th. See: www.Hawkwind.com We are as yet unsure as to whether or not we will be invited to play this year. We have offered to do a show either as SLOTERDIJK or The One Eyed Bishops, whichever Hawkwind prefers. If Hawkwind invites us and confirms an appearance of either band, we will likely have to cancel our show in Colne on the 24th. What we are really trying to say, is that we can't do both gigs, because of time, money & travel, so we are waiting to see what happens. At this moment our show in Colne is 100% confirmed. If you prefer to see us at the Hawkfestival, then you would be best to drop them a line, as we need to sort this out within a month or so. Also let them know which band you prefer; SLOTERDIJK or The OEBs Here is the contact e-mail for the Hawkfest: management at Hawkwind.com Drop them a line with your thoughts. Once again, if we don't see you at the Hawkfest, we'll see you at The R&B Fest!!! Check them both out!!!! Cheers! The OEBs http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT "One Is" Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From blackblade at BHALLIGAN.COM Wed Apr 16 15:11:22 2003 From: blackblade at BHALLIGAN.COM (Brian Halligan) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:11:22 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Beach Party In-Reply-To: <6258238B31F8F041AEA921331091F0A6020FD8FA@exchsen0a1md.dfa.state.ny.us> Message-ID: John Swartz wrote: >> I prefer the old tBS, circa *Trepanation* >> and *Box of Hammers*. Trepanation was probably the rawest and heaviest the Surgeons have been. I'd say my favorites in order are BoH, Trep, Beach Party, PoW, Eponymous and Malpractise. Jason Scruton wrote: > Amen, Brother about "Siege..." The first time I heard it live was one of the > heaviest moments in my concert-going life, until the hijinks the next night > at Seneca Falls. I'll second that. Granted I haven't seen Motorhead yet, but standing so close to such a raging version Siege is top on my list too. > I wonder if we could cajole tBS into starting their sets with the theme-song > to Beach Blanket Bingo, or maybe a Beach Boys song... > (Has their ever been a punk-ish version of "Good Vibrations?") Or maybe Summertime Blues or California Sun! > (what the hell is in my coffee today?) LSD? (Lactose Substitute Dairy product) Brian From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 16:17:37 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:17:37 +0100 Subject: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] One Eyed Bishops and/or SLOTERDIJK @ UK Summer Festival(s) Message-ID: See! I said we were just working up the list!:) Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burro Mike" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] One Eyed Bishops and/or SLOTERDIJK @ UK Summer Festival(s) I realize this reply comes directly on the heals of the announcement just made, but within the last 10 minutes we received a note from Hawkwind inviting SLOTERDIJK to perform at the Hawkfestival. We warmly accepted the invite and so when official slots & schedules become available, you'll get all that info from www.Hawkwind.com. There is a link on the bottom right of their homepage that says 'Hawkfest 2003' At this point the fate of our show in Colne is in the air. I may pass the gig on to another act or cancel. So, if you want to see us in the UK this summer, best to plan on attending the Hawkfestival. Remember, this is a private event, and requires the acquisition of a 'Hawkwind Passport' as a pre-requisite for entry. All that can be sorted via: www.Hawkwind.com Cheers & Peace! Mike Burro (SLOTERDIJK) ----- Original Message ----- From: Burro Mike Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:52 PM To: boc-l at listserv.spc.edu; hawkwind at yahoogroups.com; sloterdijk-pod at yahoogroups.com; spunkmesiter at aol.com; tkperkins at earthlink.net; drehner at head-cfa.harvard.edu; ed at riverrats.net; hickam at clas.net; dreamwnd at apci.net; JVK at mac.com; rbose at talk21.com; livemusicmagazine at hotmail.com; warrendavis180 at msn.com; jmp at monitor.net; p.addison at t-online.de; barry at burbs.co.uk; webmaster at ukbands.net; perone.1 at osu.edu; Jay at struzzin.com; webmaster at bluesmatters.com; john at space-rock.co.uk; info at the-rocker.co.uk; mail at spitz.co.uk; headsmithuk at yahoo.co.uk; Bigpawsrecords at aol.com; rustic-rod at freecall-uk.co.uk; BCRich78 at comcast.net; RobinjED at manchuk.freeserve.co.uk; kim at blissaquamarine.net Subject: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] One Eyed Bishops and/or SLOTERDIJK @ UK Summer Festival(s) which one? The One Eyed Bishops: UK Summer Festival News The One Eyed Bishops are booked for 'The Great British R&B Festival, in Colne Lancashire. Our show is on Saturday, August 24, 2003 @ The Crown Hotel, Colne Time 7:30-8:30 PM visit www.bluesfestival.co.uk for a look at last year's website. Although it has not been updated yet, most of the info is still pertinent, like camping etc. As many of you may know, Hawkwind are organizing their second annual summer 'Hawkfestival', this time around Blackpool and scheduled for August, 8th, 9th & 10th. See: www.Hawkwind.com We are as yet unsure as to whether or not we will be invited to play this year. We have offered to do a show either as SLOTERDIJK or The One Eyed Bishops, whichever Hawkwind prefers. If Hawkwind invites us and confirms an appearance of either band, we will likely have to cancel our show in Colne on the 24th. What we are really trying to say, is that we can't do both gigs, because of time, money & travel, so we are waiting to see what happens. At this moment our show in Colne is 100% confirmed. If you prefer to see us at the Hawkfestival, then you would be best to drop them a line, as we need to sort this out within a month or so. Also let them know which band you prefer; SLOTERDIJK or The OEBs Here is the contact e-mail for the Hawkfest: management at Hawkwind.com Drop them a line with your thoughts. Once again, if we don't see you at the Hawkfest, we'll see you at The R&B Fest!!! Check them both out!!!! Cheers! The OEBs http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT "One Is" Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 19:13:34 2003 From: boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Hawkperson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:13:34 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:24:50 +0100, Jon Jarrett wrote: >On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > >> I think that this particular line of discussion should probably end here. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ted Jackson" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:50 AM >> Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call >> >> > > On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:23:33 -0500, Mike Montfort >> > > wrote: >> > > >YO COLIN! >> > > > >> > > >Does the ban include these types of projects? > > (Sorry, I've lost the attribution for this next paragraph.) > >> > > This project doesn't include any recordings of Hawkwind. You'd have >> > > to ask representatives of the bands in question (many of whom can be >> > > found here). >> > > >> > But if you cover HW tunes, you'd need the writers' permission to use them. >> > Technically, they could charge you for it! > > I'd love to know why Colin felt that he should say >what he did to that. Perhaps it's a joke I'm not getting. It's certainly >not his call to make. Along similar lines... > >On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: >> >> From: Colin J Allen >> Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List >> To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU >> Subject: Re: Studio Album >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> Replies are in the text. > > I've added indents to make it clear what's mine and what's yours >as by the blessing of Outlook Express 6.0 it has become rather unclear... > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jon Jarrett" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:18 PM >> Subject: Re: Studio Album >> > >> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Chris Raymond wrote: >> > > >> > > I copied this from MC: >> > > ------------- >> > > FUTURE PLANS: Our current project is ' Destruction of The Death >> > > Generator' which is being written in conjunction with Michael Moorcock. >> > > We have been working in conjunction with both Mike Moorcock and Mike >> > > Butterworth, and we are now in the process of rehearsing the material, >> > > which will hopefully be recorded in the spring. Following rehearsals of >> > > the stage show, the band will tour late summer. The line up will >> > > contain the current nucleus, coupled with some past members who have >> > > featured in the band during the past 30 years, similar to the highly >> > > successful Y2k Hawkestra event at the Brixton Academy. We are also >> > > currently reviewing plans to do another tour of Australia & New >> > > Zealand, maybe later in the year...... >> > > --------------- > > Maybe worth my pointing out that this text remains on the >`official source of Hawkwind info' from two years ago. Eternally young, >these plans are. > >> > Colin Allen will of course be best placed to answer this, but >> > that announcement on MC predates Nik's attempt at a second Hawkestra and I >> > think the involving of old members idea has gone by the bye now. Half >> > of them were supposed to be suing for royalties not so long ago if we >> > believe hawkethos, after all, which I'm not saying we do. But Harvey >> > and Simon seem to be keeping their distance at the moment. >> >> Hawkethos was not believeable:). Harvey is doing solo work at the moment (I >> spoke to him a couple of days ago and he is working on new material). >> Simon's absence from the tour was for real and valid reasons; he will be on >> the album and, all being well, back on stage soon. I do not think that >> anything on the scale of Hawkwestra will happen but there may well be a few >> surprises. > > So are you saying that there was no suit and that Nik and Chris >Hewitt were making the whole thing up? If you aren't, what are you saying? > >> > > So does this mean that here is a studio album that has already been >> > > recorded and about to be released, and then the Death Generator to be >> > > released later in 2003? Sorry to sound unhappy, but I have gotten fat, >> > > old and grey since In your Area was released. Finally, I hope that >> > > when there is a new album to buy, that it will available in stores >> > > instead of just by mailorder. >> > >> > That last will definitely be down to Colin but I don't think >> > we can criticise him if he's unable to cut into the big distributors' >> > networks. If the band wanted that they shouldn't have fired Doug >> > Smith; whatever else it got them in tems of artistic freedom, it cost >> > them that. >> > >> > I believe, and would love to be corrected, that the new album >> > which was recently said to be finished, is going to be what's left of >> > the Death Generator concept album from 1998, but since _Spacebrock_ and >> > _Family Tree_ emerged in that time I don't suppose much material >> > existed until quite recently. I await its final emergence, once artwork, >> > mastering, mixing, pressing and finally distribution have finally been >> > sorted out, with very little idea of what to expect because everything >> > that we've seen other than `Strange Fruit' rather relied in Ron on >> > vocals... Whatever it is it will be unexpected. >> >> Unexpected and good:). > > Normally I'd preface something like this with a phrase along the >lines of `I hope you'll forgive me for saying' or some such, but actually >I won't pretend to care. `This album' has been in the works for five >years, in the course of which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind >album (_Spacebrock_) has come out thus using up a precious third of the, >what, six at most new tracks we've seen the band play in that time. In >*five years*. > > Furthermore, in that time we've seen, um, at least five people with >previous writing credits leave the band (though none of them were on the >last studio album billed as Hawkwind anyway), and Moorcock at least once >publicly disavow any further involvement with Hawkwind. This bloody album >could hardly get more unexpected. *If* it finally emerges, which I no >longer believe anyone saying, I'm sure some people will think it's good, >but one of the people Brock pays to lie to the fanbase about this is >not going to be the person whose opinion I trust on this. You can safely >let me make up my own mind thanks. Yours, > Jon > >ObCD: Black Label Society - _Sonic Brew_ >-- >"I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine >law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient >to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the >delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) Wow Jon, Why do you seem to dislike us so much? If you are a fan why are you pulling us to pieces, we work so hard and try to consider everyones feelings and points of view......maybe you should stop and give a little thought to ours. The band have been working really hard on this album, whether you believe it or not. You try being creative in the face of adversity. Its far easier to critcise. Why do you say that we fired Douglas? We did not, he is currently enjoying retirement at his villa in Spain. Yes things change, its sad but it is life. I just don't understand why you feel the need to attack us, you either like what we are doing and buy our records or you do not. Why on earth would Dave pay anyone to praise his music? That is such a discourteous thing to say that it verges on rudeness. Also do you think that you know something about the legal proceedings that we do not? All I can say is try walking a mile in the other man's shoes and perhaps you will gain a grater understanding of the other man's feelings. I feel so sad that I have to write a message like this when there are so many more positive things I could be putting my energy into......but hey maybe that's the problem? The new album is sounding great by the way. Kris (waiting to be attacked by Jon, but feeling that she had to say something) From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Wed Apr 16 19:19:11 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:19:11 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: One thing occurs to me - this argument would not be happening prior to the arrival of the internet. Patience,then, was, indeed a virtue. I think we have all been led to expect practically daily bulletins from every musician saying what they'd just had for breakfast and what they intend to do today, etc etc. It's not the public's fault - it's the perception that people are led to expect ever more and more regular information, however inconsequential. To me what Dave and Nik and anyone do in terms of lawsuits etc, is their business - if they choose to let us know then that's fine but we have no right to EXPECT them to. Musically, you can point to tons of bands who have kept the fans waiting far longer for albums - look at Kate Bush (sic) - at least Hawkfans have had SOME worthwhile albums, not forgetting all the great albums by bands not associated with Hawkwind directly. I think Jon has some valid points in terms of his opinions, but for me the flaw is what we are all led to expect because of the existence of the internet - Ok, so you can;t go back and not invent the wheel, but it's that old argument of "using" a public forum when it suits the artist that leads to this greater need, expectation and demand for every nook and crannie of the musicians lives to come out - that maybe at hte heart of all this. No gripes against Jon or Colin - far from it - just another ten pennorth in the pot. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin J Allen" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album From boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 19:19:51 2003 From: boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Hawkperson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:19:51 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: Oops sorry if this came out twice, but I seemed to send the same message back last time and I should have snipped it :-} Wow Jon! Why do you seem to dislike us so much? If you are a fan why are you pulling us to pieces, we work so hard and try to consider everyones feelings and points of view......maybe you should stop and give a little thought to ours. The band have been working really hard on this album, whether you believe it or not. You try being creative in the face of adversity. Its far easier to critcise. Why do you say that we fired Douglas? We did not, he is currently enjoying retirement at his villa in Spain. Yes things change, its sad but it is life. I just don't understand why you feel the need to attack us, you either like what we are doing and buy our records or you do not. Why on earth would Dave pay anyone to praise his music? That is such a discourteous thing to say that it verges on rudeness. Also do you think that you know something about the legal proceedings that we do not? All I can say is try walking a mile in the other man's shoes and perhaps you will gain a grater understanding of the other man's feelings. I feel so sad that I have to write a message like this when there are so many more positive things I could be putting my energy into......but hey maybe that's the problem? The new album is sounding great by the way. Kris (waiting to be attacked by Jon, but feeling that she had to say something) From js3619 at ACMENET.NET Wed Apr 16 19:26:11 2003 From: js3619 at ACMENET.NET (Bolts of Ungodly Vision) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:26:11 -0400 Subject: HW/OFF: a supertangential King Crimson Kconnection In-Reply-To: <200304162313.TAA02787@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: I hate to interrupt the fun, but the following anecdote is provided by Fripp in his diary at www.disciplineglobalmobile.com. I figure that if Snorkwind could be the name of something, why not "a new Crimson technical term?" ......................... A new Crimson technical term, one that was featured prominently in tonight's set, is asswind. The term originates with Trey, who used it as a synonym for vectorisation. This is itself another Crim technical term, one that originates in the ProjeKct Two sessions at Studio Belewbeloid in November 1997. Vectorising is something like a sonic amuse bouche , or swirling sonicscape, that functions as a bridge between pieces where silence, or quiet, is not appropriate. A vector shift may function as an ear-clearer, a lug-sorbet as it were, to cleanse the aural palate before the next piece of stonking Crimson terror is delivered to drive wives from halls. Recently, Trey has taken to suggesting a vectorisation with the word asswind . The usage of this term has spread, carelessly, and now extends even to Soundscapes. An introductory Soundscape, prior to the band coming onstage, has even been declared a savage blast of asswind. This is, of course, close to sacrilege. Ade broke a string, which he attributes to not having time to return to the hotel for a shower: this interrupted his personal ritual of performance-preparation. While Ade was changing guitar, and re-tuning, a vectorisation was needed. So Ade called to me - asswind. In and of itself, this was fine: I understood what Ade wanted. But it didn't quite occur that, with in-ear monitoring damping his sense of vocal amplitude, Ade's voice was somewhat louder than it might otherwise have been. In addition to being clearly audible at the edge of the stage, which had Ken & John rolling in laughter, Ade was standing not far from the microphone. I'm not sure what the polite & respectful Japanese audience made of the singer calling out asswind to the guitarist stage left . From mjec.storer at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Apr 16 19:35:16 2003 From: mjec.storer at NTLWORLD.COM (Mark Storer) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:35:16 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: Well said, Kris!! Anyone continuing with these ridiculous, petty gripes needs sympathy. Keep on truckin' Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hawkperson" To: Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:19 AM Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album > Oops sorry if this came out twice, but I seemed to send the same message > back last time and I should have snipped it :-} > > Wow Jon! > > Why do you seem to dislike us so much? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 09/03/2003 From boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 16 19:52:50 2003 From: boclist at HWIND.GLOBALNET.CO.UK (Hawkwind) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:52:50 +0100 Subject: HW: HAWKFEST UPDATE Message-ID: Hi Peter Yes you can park cars by tents. There are also disabled toilet facilities. It may be difficult to arrive Thursday because of licensing restrictions, but mail me off list and I will see what I can do :-) Best wishes Kris Please note that this electronic mail system is not intended to form any legal contract or binding agreement. This is for information purposes only. Please also note that this message should not be interpreted as any form of valid information. You use the information contained in this message at your own risk. ----- Original Message ----- From: PETER WILKINSON To: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:29 AM Subject: Re: HW: HAWKFEST UPDATE RE HAWKFEST. SOUNDING GOOD SO FAR. I AM HOPING TO TAKE A SMALL GROUP OF HAWK FANS (APP.12)THIS YEAR AS PART OF THE YAP PROJECT. AMONG THE GROUP ARE A COULE OF DISABLED. THEREFORE CAN YOU PLEASE COMMENT ON THE FOLLOWING BEFORE WE ORDER TICKETS_- HALF OF US ALREADY HAVE PASSPORTS. *CAN WE PARK CARS NEAR OUR TENTS -IF NOT HOW FAR AWAY?? * ARE WE ABLE TO CAMP ON THURSDAY TO GIVE US CHANCE OF PICKING A SPOT NEARISH TO STAGES AND TOILETS ETC. SORRY TO ASK YOU THIS AS I REALISE YOU MUST BE VERY BUSY SETTING IT UP BUT I AM SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE ARE IMPORTANT TO US. BY THE WAY JUST WHEREABOUTS NEAR GARSTANG IS IT? KEEP ON GROOVIN PETE. >From: Rik Rx >Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List >To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU >Subject: Re: HW: HAWKFEST UPDATE >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:09:04 -0400 > >+ ++ +STAR WARRIORS + + + + + > >HAWKFEST 2003 DETAIL: > >OPEN TO HAWKWIND PASSPORT HOLDERS ONLY ! > >HW PASSPORTS ARE TOTALLY FREE !! AND YES - YOU *CAN* SEND IN A PASSPORT >APPLICATION FORM WITH YOUR HAWKFEST CHEQUE IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A PASSPORT >YET !!! Both will be processed and returned together ! > >TO APPLY: >Print off a passport form from here: >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/pa_txt.htm >fill it out, put it in an envelope with 2 signed photos >and send it off to the address on the form - easy as that ! >(Don't forget your cheque for HAWKFEST if you want tickets).... > >HAWKFEST TICKETS ARE ?50 FOR 3 FULL DAYS of bands, camping, and loads of >entertainment !!!! (there is a ?3 surcharge for online credit card >bookings) > >FESTIE DETAIL: >We have listened to all your comments from last year's event, and you will >be pleased that there will be REAL toilets, REAL showers, a launderette, >(at >least)3 bar areas, more choice of food, mind, body and spirit (green) >areas, >a tattooist, belly dancing lessons(!)etc. etc. > >There will also be *two separate stages* this year, as well as a 'jam area' >where people can get together and create something unique....... A drum >workshop will take place again, and there may be some acoustic sets from >various people. . . . . . > >PLEASE BUY YOUR TICKETS *NOW* TO AVOID ANY DISAPPOINTMENT !! >NUMBERS *WILL* HAVE TO BE LIMITED AND ARE ISSUED ON A FIRST-COME-FIRST >SERVED BASIS. > >A lot of people have read all the great the feedback from last year's event >and will be sure not to miss this one !! > >Checkout the info/pix/downloads from Hawkfest 2002: >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/gigs/HawkFest/pages/DevonFestInfo.h t >m > >+ ++ + + + MESSAGE ENDS + + ++ + + > >www.hawkwind.com _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET Wed Apr 16 19:52:44 2003 From: lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET (Stephe Lindas) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:52:44 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: Its the Stupidity of the age!!!Rock on. Cheers Stephe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Storer" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:35 PM Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album > Well said, Kris!! > Anyone continuing with these ridiculous, petty gripes needs sympathy. > Keep on truckin' > Mark. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hawkperson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:19 AM > Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album > > > > Oops sorry if this came out twice, but I seemed to send the same message > > back last time and I should have snipped it :-} > > > > Wow Jon! > > > > Why do you seem to dislike us so much? > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 09/03/2003 From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Wed Apr 16 20:25:03 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:25:03 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <200304162319.TAA02948@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Hawkperson wrote: > Wow Jon! Hi Kris. Sorry if this is a little incoherent, I was heading for bed when this came in and thought I'd better squeeze out a reply so as not to leave unnecessary bad blood in the air. I'll reply to Colin's post tomorrow when I'm a bit more awake. But... > Why do you seem to dislike us so much? > If you are a fan why are you pulling us to pieces, we work so hard and try > to consider everyones feelings and points of view......maybe you should > stop and give a little thought to ours. Trouble is with this, there's so many different people to consider the views of. Only one set of them seems keen to convince people of anything though. Well. And Nik and Chris Hewitt, but I don't believe them either. > The band have been working really hard on this album, whether you believe > it or not. You try being creative in the face of adversity. Its far easier > to critcise. For what it's worth, I do know about trying to be creative in the face of adversity, though probably not on as long a term as Hawkwind do. But I'm a skint doctoral student writing up. Anyway. > Why do you say that we fired Douglas? We did not, he is currently enjoying > retirement at his villa in Spain. Yes things change, its sad but it is > life. I've heard that Doug Smith was fired from so many sources, for releasing _Distant Horizons_ without Hawkwind's permission before it was ready, including one source who claimed to have it from Doug and was certainly in touch with him at the time, that it never occurred to me to doubt it. Even now I have trouble with this. It's almost the only consistent story about Hawkwind's internal dealings in recent years. I'm sure he is retired now if you say so, but he wasn't in 1997. > I just don't understand why you feel the need to attack us, you either like > what we are doing and buy our records or you do not. Oh no, it's more complex than that. I buy the records and like the music, but, and I hope my post to Colin's message will set this out more clearly, I get very sick of the hype and spin. Well. I like most of the music. But I buy the records anyway and I go to the gigs. You have my loyalty in all financial terms. That doesn't make me sold on everything Hawkwind does as band or corporate entity by a long way. > Why on earth would Dave pay anyone to praise his music? That is such a > discourteous thing to say that it verges on rudeness. Well, don't get me wrong here, but isn't that exactly what publicity is about? I didn't quite say that, in fact, I talked about people being paid to lie to the fanbase, which was unnecessarily nasty phrasing and I apologise. What I meant was that we get told stuff that isn't true, or is contradictory, or gets changed, on the basis of which we often pay money, or book time off, or don't do something else, and this at the same time as being told to disbelieve other reports and generally cleave loyal to hawkwind.com and all its parts. I'll take this up with Colin's post where the argument has moved on slightly but this is the big problem I have. > Also do you think that you know something about the legal proceedings that > we do not? All I can say is try walking a mile in the other man's shoes and > perhaps you will gain a grater understanding of the other man's feelings. No, I don't know anything about the legal proceedings that you don't. I have only heard a very little. I hate that it should come to legal proceedings at all, let alone that this should be a matter for public broadcasts on mailing lists like this. Or indeed at Nik's gigs. Again, there are an *awful lot* of shoes to try walking in here. > I feel so sad that I have to write a message like this when there are so > many more positive things I could be putting my energy into......but hey > maybe that's the problem? Thanks for organising the Cambridge gig. I appreciated that. I'm going to try and make Nottingham too. > The new album is sounding great by the way. I can't find the message where it was 66% per cent finished a couple of years ago, but even if it were *all* finished, there would still be the mixing and mastering, artwork, the pressing, the distribution... I've known better-organised bands with more dedicated labels take a year or more to get these last stages completed (Porcupine Tree when with Delerium for one). Sometimes it never happens. When someone says it's finished, therefore, I have *no* idea which of these they mean but I still don't expect to see it any time soon. No offence intended to yourself by this of course. But until the CD is in my player and I'm reading the sleeve notes, or at least until I know where I can buy it from, this encouraging statement is worth *zip* to me. > Kris > (waiting to be attacked by Jon, but feeling that she had to say something) I've got no attacks for you. Up till this message I've never had cause to doubt a word you've said. Sorry to have been so sweeping that you felt you were included. Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From dr_technical at MCMAHON66.FSNET.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 03:22:00 2003 From: dr_technical at MCMAHON66.FSNET.CO.UK (Sean McMahon) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:22:00 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: Yes, I agree with Kris. I think your head is stuck so far up your own arse its untrue! People don't come on this list to listen to people whinging on all the time about immaterial things, merely to gain information about a band they like and talk to like minded people so rap up for gods sake! From tojackso at LIBRARY.SYR.EDU Thu Apr 17 07:29:47 2003 From: tojackso at LIBRARY.SYR.EDU (Ted Jackson) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:29:47 EDT Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <003701c3046e$979f0280$77447ad5@dial.pipex.com> Message-ID: On 17 Apr 2003 at 0:19, Andrew Garibaldi wrote: > One thing occurs to me - this argument would not be happening prior to > the arrival of the internet. Patience,then, was, indeed a virtue. I > think we have all been led to expect practically daily bulletins from > every musician saying what they'd just had for breakfast and what they > intend to do today, etc etc. It's not the public's fault - it's the > perception that people are led to expect ever more and more regular > information, however inconsequential. You said a mouthful! B?C fans were the absolute most patient in rockdom, back in the day. They always took FOREVER between albums, and EB would tease us at concerts, saying the new album was coming in a couple months etc. And this was when they were signed by Columbia, and were on top of the world. Then, a year later, we'd see the new album! It got to be an inside joke with us loyal fans. EB was almost even winking when he said it--I guess, you couldn't tell for sure with those shades! theo From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Thu Apr 17 07:35:44 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:35:44 +0100 Subject: HW: Mudhoney & Earthlab In-Reply-To: <003901c2d5af$39434c20$373a70c2@merlinas> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Dave Bottomley wrote: > Also, I noticed in the Guardian's gig guide for the following week that a > band called Earthlab are playing Manchester Life Cafe on Fri 21st. They're > described as featuring members of Hawkwind, Angelwitch (!) & Sonic Boom's > Spectrum. Anyone know anything about this lot &, particularly, who the > ex-HWer(s) is/are? Well, I couldn't raise anything on Google about this at the time, but now the gig's actually happened, a search on `Earthlab Spectrum' threw up this: . From this it seems that it's `Earth Lab', two words, that the ex-Hawks in question are Jerry Richards (all of them), and it's a project with Alf Hardy of Paradogs, whose last album was of course called _Foul Play at the Earth Lab_ so I suppose maybe we should have guessed. Seems to be a very audio-visual thing and possibly not to be repeated, but had bass from Pete Gordelier of Angelwitch too. So there's some more good links... Yours, Jon ObCD: Starfield - _Return to Earth_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Thu Apr 17 07:44:30 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:44:30 +0200 Subject: HW:Polydor Message-ID: Hello, Got a "Live '79" UK-pressing Bronze 527 (1980),distributed,I think by WEA Then another UK-pressing Bronze 527 (also 1980) but distributed(again I think,Polydor(Don't know the distribution-deals in the UK,and certainly not that long ago)) Did the distribution deals change the same year. Another strange think is the record-label itself is Bronze but mentions:"Original Sound by Bronze Records" The 2 backs are slightly different.Not the artwork,but the different record-company stuff. Any comment,Andy G,Doug P,anyone?? greetings filip From beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 17 07:59:00 2003 From: beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Allen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:59:00 +0100 Subject: BOC : What are they playing this month? Message-ID: Oh, fantastic, that site has stacks of info. Thank you. Chris. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul G To: Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: Re: BOC : What are they playing this month? > Suggest you have a look at Ralph Whaley's website .... setlists for all > 2003 shows are shown here: > > http://www.macdigital-uk.com/boc/giglopaedia/2003_setlists.htm > > Some quite big changes since last year's UK tour .... > From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Thu Apr 17 09:02:54 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (Aerospace Age Peacenik) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:02:54 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <200304162319.TAA02948@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Kris If I may be so bold. The problem is very often not with the message that Hawkwind delivers to BOC-L and Hawkwind at YahooGroups but the way the message is phrased by the messenger. Reading your post was such a blast of fresh air compared to the sarcastic and I-know-more-than-you attitude of your business manager. Please post to this list and Hawkwind at YahooGroups more often. Best regards to you and Dave Mike Montfort ______________________________________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Hawkperson Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:20 PM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Oops sorry if this came out twice, but I seemed to send the same message back last time and I should have snipped it :-} Wow Jon! Why do you seem to dislike us so much? If you are a fan why are you pulling us to pieces, we work so hard and try to consider everyones feelings and points of view......maybe you should stop and give a little thought to ours. The band have been working really hard on this album, whether you believe it or not. You try being creative in the face of adversity. Its far easier to critcise. Why do you say that we fired Douglas? We did not, he is currently enjoying retirement at his villa in Spain. Yes things change, its sad but it is life. I just don't understand why you feel the need to attack us, you either like what we are doing and buy our records or you do not. Why on earth would Dave pay anyone to praise his music? That is such a discourteous thing to say that it verges on rudeness. Also do you think that you know something about the legal proceedings that we do not? All I can say is try walking a mile in the other man's shoes and perhaps you will gain a grater understanding of the other man's feelings. I feel so sad that I have to write a message like this when there are so many more positive things I could be putting my energy into......but hey maybe that's the problem? The new album is sounding great by the way. Kris (waiting to be attacked by Jon, but feeling that she had to say something) From nycademon at ATTBI.COM Thu Apr 17 09:21:54 2003 From: nycademon at ATTBI.COM (Guido Vacano) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:21:54 -0600 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <200304170722.DAA06657@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Sean McMahon wrote: >Yes, I agree with Kris. I think your head is stuck so far up your own arse >its untrue! People don't come on this list to listen to people whinging on >all the time about immaterial things, merely to gain information about a >band they like and talk to like minded people so rap up for gods sake! > > > What the heck is "whinging" anyway? I've heard of "whining", and Webster's New Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has "whingding". Kris, I have no complaints with Hawkwind or Hawkwind management, etc., but your website (www.hawkwind.com) is an abomination. Thanks, Guido From dr_technical at MCMAHON66.FSNET.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 09:34:55 2003 From: dr_technical at MCMAHON66.FSNET.CO.UK (Sean McMahon) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:34:55 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: >What the heck is "whinging" anyway? I've heard of "whining", and >Webster's New Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has "whingding". Have a look in the Oxford English Dictionary. Should be 'whingeing'. Sorry about the spelling mistake! From _jt at COX.NET Thu Apr 17 09:35:50 2003 From: _jt at COX.NET (Jeff Thompson) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:35:50 -0500 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <3E9EAA72.3050301@attbi.com> Message-ID: Guido Vacano wrote: > What the heck is "whinging" anyway? I've heard of "whining", and > Webster's New Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has "whingding". Whinging is britslang for "complaining endlessly (without lifting a finger to do anything about it)." From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Thu Apr 17 09:41:40 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:41:40 +0100 Subject: HW: answer to Colin (was: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album) In-Reply-To: <004001c30393$a9f9c4a0$883dfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Right, I'm clearly annoying people with this, for which I apologise, and so this will be my last message on the subject to the list, this only because last night I said I would write it and left stuff unclear as a result. I'm happy to discuss this off-list with Colin or anyone, but I'll keep it there after this. I'll also try to be less long-winded with this one now that we seem to have worked out where we're disagreeing. On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > > > Jon, when making comments it is rather useful to get one's facts > > > correct, rather than allowing your own delusions free rein. I am > > > sure that you can make up your own mind (you seem already to have > > > done so). As usual, your logic is so flawed as to be amusing. > > > > That wasn't logic (because you know what logic is, right?), it was > > an opinion, but it did contain facts, which you imply, without saying as > > usual, that I've got wrong. Challenging me on facts can sometimes be a > > highly effective strategy but not, I think, this time. Let's gather them > > in. > > Yes, I do know what logic is. Despite the fact that Birkbeck beat Cranfield > in the final of University Challenge, the latter institution, among others, > still does some excellent and rigourous academic work, much of which > involves an understanding of logic. I quote your comment: "in the course of > which at least one other notionally `new' Hawkwind album (_Spacebrock_) has > come out thus using up a precious third of the, what, six at most new tracks > we've seen the band play in that time." This is deeply flawed; albums do > not "use up" new tracks. New tracks may appear on particular albums or they > may not. Some of the, admittedly, very few new tracks played in the last few > years did also appear on Spacebrock; does that have any impact on anything > else? Oh, the academic thing, I really shouldn't use that .sig then people might not think I thought being an academic gave me an advantage in argument. Yes, Cranfield's good, University Challenge proves nothing, and I'm a medieval historian so my academic affiliation really shouldn't come into this. But, OK, you can in fact set this one out logically. It requires one premise, that there is a limited amount of new material. I suppose Hawkwind can write as long as they live but since we're looking at releasing an album there must be a closer limit than that. There can only be so many tracks ready before the album is compiled, yes? Now, we the fans have evidence of only six to eight, which I listed last time. Of those, two went on _Spacebrock_ and three, or four if you count `Money Tree' as a new one, were Ron's or involved him crucially and so I rule them out too. That leaves one version of `Earth Calling' and `Strange Fruit'. The impact of stuff appearing on _Spacebrock_ was to reduce the pool of new stuff available for further albums and thereby to anyone watching the likelihood of this material, which had taken a long while to turn up, being enough for an album. Now, you may say the band have been turning out numbers by the score the last few months, cool. But there's no way I can know that, I can only go on what gets played, and that isn't encouraging. I do hope Hawkwind surprise me. > Jon, you appear to be going off on a wild goose chase yet again by replying > to arguments that I have not put forward. > Your point being? Apart, that is, from the creation of yet more non-existent > arguments. > Although this has no relation to my comment, I will state here that you are > wrong on at least one of the people you name as having left. However, once > again, I would enquire as to the point of your list. I'm guessing that would be one of the people I suggested might still appear then, but let me come to the point in a minute. > Mike has said that he does not want to be involved in working with any > Hawkwind related bands; this also appears (more recently) on his site. I > would not take everything that Michael says as being literal truth, however, > for a range of reasons, none of which reflect badly on him. Yes, as I said, I don't entirely take his word on his pledge. But anyway. The reason I listed all this was that you suggested my facts were wrong, but didn't make it at all clear which ones you meant. So I backed them all up. Now we know what you meant, I can leave all that out. > Jon, do you really think that, in your words, there are "people Brock pays > to lie to the fan-base about this"? I would suggest that is delusional. Now, here is the key. As I said to Kris last night, I chose my words very aggressively here and probably shouldn't have. Sorry. But. Both you and Rik are presumably being paid to, among other things, pass information on to the fanbase. And a lot of this information turns out to be wrong. Brief examples, and I'll agree that some of these aren't immediately fair, see below: War of the Worlds isn't going to happen; two of the dates on the last tour were pulled at very short notice; there was before that going to be a Spring tour, or at least it was suggested that there would be, which was eventually left aside in the effort to organise Hawkfest; Graham Coxon and Arthur Brown were conspicuous by their absence at the Forum Christmas Party (or whichever one they were supposed to be at); I have a Welcome to the Future tour t-shirt on it where two of the listed venues were never played, and three more including my home Cambridge were cancelled before that, slightly before the shirts went to press I assume, and, how this damn argument started, we've been primed to await a Death Generator album since, as I showed, 1998 at the latest, and indeed something for passport holders only since 2001 at least. Now, some of this doesn't matter much. Okay, no Graham Coxon, we wren't going to see him really were we. Places cancelled on the 1997 tour were good and early and no tickets went on sale as far as I know. But some of it did matter; I remember one person posting here having not only booked time off work but booked plane tickets, which were non-refundable, for the two cancelled gigs last winter, so they must have spent a skint few days being miserable at home and I bet they weren't the only ones. I also remember all the furore about the free CD at the Christmas Party, because it wasn't mentioned till after other people had got time off work and so on to go to the whole main tour, not knowing it would leave them out of the offer. A few hundred people try to organise their lives on this information. And again, some of it's not the band's fault; War of the Worlds and various other festivals which failed to get police permission or enough advance bookings or whatever, you have to blame on councils or most likely the promoters. But, as it appears, some of it is; the cancelled gigs last year, as far as we've been told, were because the band got an opportunity to go to Morocco cheap. And I'm sure Hawkfest was great but I would have caught one of the gigs on the Spring tour that year if it had happened. And I'd have bought this ruddy album several times now if it'd come out as many times as it's been announced. If there's explanations for these, we didn't get them. It all seems as if there's a lot of spin going on. A lot of this battle for the fans' hearts and minds is Nik's fault, the way I see it, by starting an argument about who's right and who's not about which very few people care. But it's come with this thing about only trusting official sources, and these official sources are often *wrong*. Look at the website and think how many of these failed ventures have been listed on its various versions of the news pages, though I grant you this redundancy is slowly coming out of the site. I can't find anything among the news pages which is now actually wrong, though this whole argument started round a bit about the Death Generator project which appears now to have been pulled. Likewise the out-of-date line-up information. Good. It's nice to know people read that far into my text. Still, if you look at the core album discography at you can see the sort of thing I mean. _Thrilling Adventures_ is from 1976 really, but it's up as a core release from 2000, presumably because there wasn't one and it looked a bit empty. Same arguments for _The 1999 Party_ and _Live 90_; these are archive releases. But you have to put them in somewhere I suppose. More interesting is what's not there. _Spacebrock_ for one. And anything from the Collector's Series on Voiceprint *except* _Live 90_. Are these not "approved" albums then? Even _Atomhenge 1976_ which is the same tape as _Thrilling Adventures_? Or is it just that they didn't go down so well with the online fans and the band don't care to own up to them any more? What do Voiceprint think of the band suppressing their own output like this? Who cares why, anyway; there's clearly a band view about things propagated through the website and announcements here that needs checking with reality before you can rely on it. This is my big problem. And it's why I don't generally believe much of it any more. It can cost you a lot of money believing this stuff, and much more in expectation. Thing is, and I have nearly finished honest, it's so irrelevant. There are 249 people on the list, and maybe two thirds of those are here for Hawkwind? Still fewer of them in places where they can buy stuff or go to gigs. It's nothing. I imagine the website gets hits more like four figures, although many of those must be repeat visits. But you, know stack this against sales of _Space Ritual_, and it must be a vanishingly small figure. Or, maybe more relevantly, against sales of _Epocheclipse_, which is the last Hawkwind item that had any real promotion effort put behind it, presumably because of EMI having money. I appreciate Hawkwind by themselves can't get reviews into _The Times_ and I don't expect them to. But that's your target audience. The people you can reach through the 'net are a thinly-spread fraction of the buying public, and more importantly, especially here, we're the ones who'll buy stuff and go to gigs *anyway*. I know I do, and I must be about the most vicious critic on the list, who speaks up anyway. There's no point wasting this effort on convincing us of good guys and bad guys and stuff, we are already on Hawkwind's side in as much as our money will come to the band anyway (if you make it possible). But this raft of people who never see this stuff, whom you have to hope will come to the gigs or else get only fifty at each one, they only know about Hawkwind from the papers, the radio or posters or most importantly CDs in shops. They won't see the moral arguments, but if they see Hawkwind are playing nearby, or see a new Hawkwind album in the racks, they may pick it up and you've got them again, if it's any good. And that's what gets people saying to their friends, "oh, yeah, Hawkwind, got their new album the other day and it's really good, they've still got it". You can't get people thinking this by telling it them over and over with no evidence. Point: when I bought _Distant Horizons_ I did so the week it came out in a Virgin Megastore, and it had, and still has indeed because I found it so amusing, a Virgin chart sticker on it and was being sold at a discount. Being in Virgin it was still twelve quid but you could tell this was a new Hawkwind album and it was placed in the high street with an offer on it. Even EBS could do this. And I bet Hawkwind shifted more copies of that than they have of _Spacebrock_ or even _Yule Ritual_. That's what counts: actual product, stuff I or they can see or pick up. I don't know. Maybe Hawkwind is like Fairport Convention or Caravan or Gong (especially Gong) now aware that their real fans are their core market and the people they need to aim for. But the hype reads like they are still aiming for the bigger market. That bigger market isn't here and the battle for hearts and minds won't break them into it. Anyway, nearly finished. Last bit. > Basically, your position appears to be that you are upset that Hawkwind > have: > > 1. Not released a studio album for a long time. > > 2. Not kept the fans up to date with what is going on with the album. > > On point 1, I agree that it has been far too long since an album was > released; however, your view that there will not be an album is an illogical > extension of your disappointment. I'm not saying there won't be one: I'm saying, in stronger terms than this, that I'm not holding my breath for it. As I said in my message to Kris, even if all recording is finished I know from waiting for albums from other bands and indeed Hawkwind that it takes a while to get the things out anyway for some people, because of labels or stoned artists or incompetents at the pressing plant or whatever. > On point 2, I agree that information has not always been updated as > regularly as it could have been. However, once information appears, your > reaction is to denigrate the information; where is the logic in that? Well, as I say, some of the information is wrong, which makes it all more difficult to trust; and it's also all positive. This will happen, something else will happen instead, plans that don't happen are replaced by new ones. If there were ever a message that explained why things hadn't gone to plan that would be something; but really I'd much rather that what information we got was actually on the mark, whether that means holding back till things are fixed or just not floating every second plan that runs through someone's head, whichever or whatever is behind this. And then you wouldn't hear me going on about how you can't trust anything but results because there'd be more of a link between them and information. > Strangely, many of our views are not that far apart; you just seem to be > obsessed with replying to arguments that have not been made. Oh, I'm just obsessed generally. And I've finished now. Probably made enough enemies for one lifetime. See people at the gigs. Yours, Jon ObCDs: Harvey Bainbridge - _Red Shift_ and Hawkwind - _Family Tree_ (this mail has taken a while to phrase right) -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET Thu Apr 17 10:08:30 2003 From: lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET (Stephe Lindas) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:08:30 -0400 Subject: HW: Mudhoney & Earthlab Message-ID: Is Foul play at the Earth Lab available? THe Star nation link won't open for me. Anyone know? Cheers Stephe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Jarrett" To: Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:35 AM Subject: Re: HW: Mudhoney & Earthlab > On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Dave Bottomley wrote: > > > > > Also, I noticed in the Guardian's gig guide for the following week that a > > band called Earthlab are playing Manchester Life Cafe on Fri 21st. They're > > described as featuring members of Hawkwind, Angelwitch (!) & Sonic Boom's > > Spectrum. Anyone know anything about this lot &, particularly, who the > > ex-HWer(s) is/are? > > Well, I couldn't raise anything on Google about this at the time, > but now the gig's actually happened, a search on `Earthlab Spectrum' threw > up this: . > > From this it seems that it's `Earth Lab', two words, that the > ex-Hawks in question are Jerry Richards (all of them), and it's a project > with Alf Hardy of Paradogs, whose last album was of course called _Foul > Play at the Earth Lab_ so I suppose maybe we should have guessed. Seems to > be a very audio-visual thing and possibly not to be repeated, but had bass > from Pete Gordelier of Angelwitch too. So there's some more good > links... Yours, > Jon > > ObCD: Starfield - _Return to Earth_ > -- > "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine > law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient > to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the > delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) > From Andreas.Stuewe at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Apr 17 10:00:08 2003 From: Andreas.Stuewe at T-ONLINE.DE (Andreas Stuewe) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:00:08 +0200 Subject: OFF: Amon =?iso-8859-1?q?D=FC=FCl_2_-_K=F6ln,?= 15/04/03 Message-ID: Another great gig by Germany?s best band. Renate had some trouble (again) with her voice, but the band was in full form. Sheer magic! Setlist: Eye-shaking King Apocalyptic bore Dry your ears Wolf city All the years round Deutsch-Nepal Speed inside my shoes (Instrumental) Flower of the Orient Kanaan (!) (Another Instrumental) Surrounded by the Stars (Improvisation) Archangels Thunderbird Encore: Green-bubble-raincoated-man (Another Improvisation) Basically the same set as some 15 months ago, but played totally different. And to hear a 10 min. version of Kanaan live was a real pleasure! After they did Kanaan the audience was asked if anyone ever noticed that the song includes the words of the Lord?s prayer in Greek... Line-up: Renate Knaup Vocals John Weinzierl Guitar Lothar Meid Bass + Vocals Chris Karrer Guitar, violin, sitar + vocals Peter Leopold Drums Jan Kahlert Percussion + vocals Cheers, Andreas From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Thu Apr 17 10:22:10 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:22:10 +0200 Subject: HW:Michael Butterworth Message-ID: Hello, As I'm cleaning out my stuff (yes,the hawkcave comes true),I stumbled across something odd.I've got some strip-books from when I was young and have some of the science fiction strip "Storm" and guess who's writing the texts? "Michael Butterworth". Anyone can confirm this,if it's the same person? greetings filip From andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG Thu Apr 17 10:38:06 2003 From: andrew at SILVERWATER.ORG (Andrew Apold) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:38:06 -0400 Subject: HW:Michael Butterworth Message-ID: Well I'm pretty sure it's not based on an idea by Michael Butterworth then written by some no-name hack with Butterworth's name slapped on it to drive up sales :) ================= As I'm cleaning out my stuff (yes,the hawkcave comes true),I stumbled across something odd.I've got some strip-books from when I was young and have some of the science fiction strip "Storm" and guess who's writing the texts? "Michael Butterworth". From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Thu Apr 17 10:51:32 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:51:32 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <003701c3046e$979f0280$77447ad5@dial.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 12:19:11AM +0100, Andrew Garibaldi wrote: => One thing occurs to me - this argument would not be happening prior to the => arrival of the internet. Patience,then, was, indeed a virtue. I largely disagree. I think it would still be happening, but in a scattered fashion and on perhaps a smaller scale. Why? Because the same information would appear through different "traditional" sources---radio interviews, genre articles, etc.---with the same overall result: that fans might eventually, e.g., tire of hearing about "the new album coming out soon" and begin to feel the same line wearing a bit thin or confusing. It's possible that the same argument being conducted through an Internet mailing list might also break out amongst isolated pockets of Hawkfans. I also think that general nosiness about inner machinations of bands is not confined to the Internet. It just makes it easier to discuss on a grander scale. :-) => I think Jon has some valid points in terms of his opinions, but for me the => flaw is what we are all led to expect because of the existence of the => internet Again, I largely disagree. Even without the Internet, if fans heard nothing from Camp Hawkwind for a long while they'd probably begin to wonder, "what's up?" I'm sure lots of idle speculation would ensue. Some might even conclude the band had called it a day if they heard no news for a very long time. Others might wonder "hey, didn't I hear on that Total Rock programme that they were working on some kind of concept album? What happened to that?" The Internet is just a tool that makes it much easier and cheaper for the band to pump out information verifying they're still alive and what they're doing. On the flip side, it makes it easier for Hawkfans to congregate and discuss that information. But I don't think it is anything that wouldn't happen (and isn't happening) outside the Internet. I still think that fans off the Internet that caught wind of the legal brouhaha would still be interested in digging the dirt behind it. :-) In short, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think the Internet invented skepticism and prurience (or even a demand for information). ;-) I do think that the Internet does allow the band to disseminate its information quickly and cheaply, something which it probably finds advantageous. Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." --- Frank Vincent Zappa From paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU Thu Apr 17 10:53:57 2003 From: paul at GROMIT.DLIB.VT.EDU (Paul Mather) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:53:57 -0400 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: <000801c30470$d5a95b00$09170750@orinoco> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 12:35:16AM +0100, Mark Storer wrote: => Well said, Kris!! => Anyone continuing with these ridiculous, petty gripes needs sympathy. The demonisation begins... Cheers, Paul. e-mail: paul at gromit.dlib.vt.edu "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" --- Slogan on the Ministry of Truth (George Orwell, _1984_) From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Apr 17 11:14:10 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:14:10 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album In-Reply-To: Andrew Garibaldi's message of Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:19:11 +0100 Message-ID: Andrew Garibaldi writes: > One thing occurs to me - this argument would not be happening prior to > the arrival of the internet. Patience,then, was, indeed a virtue. I > think we have all been led to expect practically daily bulletins from > every musician saying what they'd just had for breakfast and what they > intend to do today, etc etc. It's not the public's fault - it's the > perception that people are led to expect ever more and more regular > information, however inconsequential. There's a researched effect of email discussion groups/boards which could be called a "democratising" effect. While that sounds good, it can cause trouble in some circumstances. In most businesses the people with higher status get to say more in meetings, but not on email boards. Since businesses function through heirarchy once they get beyond a handful of people, bosses don't now discuss on email boards but merely pass information into them. In effect, the democratising effect removes a certain element of respect. This is in addition to the lack of visual and verbal cues in the written form and it all adds up to criticism being expressed sometimes too dandidly and feelings being hurt more easily. > To me what Dave and Nik and > anyone do in terms of lawsuits etc, is their business Absolutely, though I contend that Nik's side tried to involve us in the whole thing by statements such as those given at Glastonbury and benefit gigs for "The spirit of Hawkwind". I will say that I have complete respect for the (real) band's side of the dispute (whatever form it really took) to refuse to be baited into making the same sort of tacky moves to involve the fans in the unpleasantness. And in the end it's not just the Courts who decide such fights, it's us who decide them by deciding where to spend our cash. That's free market capitalism for ya. Jon's entitled to his point of view here. If he wants to be harsh or impatient then that's just part of it. I feel sad if the feelings of the band have been hurt but perhaps that's an inevitable risk of them getting the kind of feedback they'll get in a free forum such as this. I would question however whether Colin Allen hasn't had his hazing as the bearer of bad news on the taping policy. I'd assume Colin didn't make the policy and if he expressed it badly in the first instance then I think he's had enough "feedback" on that. Seems to me that it's time to let that one go. Looking forward to the Hawkfest and the new album I remain... FoFP From xl5 at IINET.NET.AU Thu Apr 17 11:26:30 2003 From: xl5 at IINET.NET.AU (William Duffy) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:26:30 +0800 Subject: HW:Michael Butterworth Message-ID: Hi If this is Storm, which was drawn by Don Lawrence then, as far as I recall, it is the same Michael Butterworth. I am assuming that as he also wrote some of the comic strip from Ranger / Look & Learn, The Trigan Empire, which was also drawn by Don Lawrence, as well as one or two novels based on the TV show Space 1999. I also am aware of another Michael Butterworth who also used to work for the same comic company in the UK, & also wrote some strips. Also, the Michael Butterworth we do know's wife also wrote comic strips for the same company. Myself & another friend were looking into the history of The Trigan Empire comic strip a while back, & came across the 2 similar names. As Michael Moorcock also wrote some comic strips for the same company too, & was working with Michael Butterworth, we guessed that it was possible the 2 Michael Butterworths were father & son (as we found different birthdates as well). William PS There's a web site about Storm, & Don Lawrence's other work, here:- http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://stefan-schaetz.de/storm/storm.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddon%2Blawrence%2Bstorm%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8 > Well I'm pretty sure it's not based on an idea by Michael Butterworth then > written by some no-name hack with Butterworth's name slapped on it to drive > up sales :) > PPS I don't think it is very likely someone slapped his name on this to drum up sales, as most of the comics of this ilk very rarely publisized who worked on them that much. Also, when the comic came out (assuming it is the same one, Michael Butterworth wasn't that well known I don't think. > > ================= > As I'm cleaning out my stuff (yes,the hawkcave comes true),I stumbled across > something odd.I've got some strip-books from when I was young and have some > of the science fiction strip "Storm" and guess who's writing the texts? > "Michael Butterworth". > > From xl5 at IINET.NET.AU Thu Apr 17 11:47:05 2003 From: xl5 at IINET.NET.AU (William Duffy) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:47:05 +0800 Subject: HW:Michael Butterworth Message-ID: Carrying on from the previous email about Michael Butterworth, here is another page of particular interest about The Trigan Empire:- http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/2585/trigan.html William From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Thu Apr 17 11:36:03 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:36:03 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals In-Reply-To: <20030217201647.82356.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Alan Linsley wrote: > --- Steve Bayley wrote: > > I have no idea what albums I have missed (other than > > more compilations) or what the line-ups have been. > > Let's have a go at the line-ups then (& bear in mind > I'm only attempting this so others can correct me): Oh ho, I like this game. > 1990: Brock/House/Bainbridge/Davey/Chadwick/Bridgett > Wishart, until Simon left in the Spring but was > temporarily replaced by a barking dog at Glastonbury > 90. > > March 91: Steve Bemand/Bainbridge/Davey/Chadwick/ > Wishart > ...alllegedly coz Brock had had enough! > > May 91 unitl end of 1994 : Brock/Davey/Chadwick with > guest appearances from others inc. > Tim Blake May 91 US tour (not sure though) > Bridgett Aug 91 Mildenhall fest > Ron Tree May 92 1 gig on the Tepee tour Ooh, had missed those. Thanks. > 2 DJs called Salt Tank Aug 92 at Brixton > Samantha Fox 1993 on Gimme Shelter single > Simon House April 94 tour Likewise that last one. > April 1995 - Summer 1996: Brock/Davey/Chadwick/Ron > Tree > Jerry Richards put in a couple of guest appearances > July 95 but didn't stay, and I read somewhere that > Crum did a few gigs on the Oct/Nov 95 Alien tour - if > so, not at the gigs I saw. > > Athens Nov 96 - Brock/Davey/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > ....then Alan left! Noooooooooooooooooo...... > > 1997 - Brock/Davey/Chadwick/Tree(now on bass) with - > Jun 97 - Huw guests at Blackheath > Aug 97 - Nik guests on US gigs inc Strange Daze? > Autumn 97 tour - Capt Rizz guests, and Crum guests > after 1st couple of gigs, and halfway through the tour > Harvey starts doing support slots. > > 1998 - bugger all > > 1999 - was this the year Brock & Tree were denied > access to US? So Rizz, Jerry & Richard did the gig > with Steve Taylor & others from ALien Planetscapes. Naw, that was 1998. There was only nothing in the UK. I also have it down as Steve Hayes, amd maybe I have that wrong. I also have Crum down as there and that *is* wrong, isn't it. I'll delete that. > 5 date tour Nov 1999 - > Brock/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > with Harvey joining at 2nd gig > Keith Kniveton on synths at 4th gig > Nik guests for the last time with "normal" HW at 5th > gig. Also Rizz 1st and, um, 5th gig it must be. Was Harvey not at the 3rd? Also, I show Dumpy as guesting at the 4th gig and Nik there too. Grateful for correction on this if it's not so. There was that "Whirlwind" gig in December too, Chadwick, Richards, Tree, Wishart, Taylor. I really did think Brock was going to let the young things carry in without him after that. > Feb/Mar 2000 Australian tour - > Brock/House/Bainbridge/Chadwick/Richards/Steve Taylor > on bass (coz the Aussies wouldn't let Ron in) Coz Ron still didn't have a passport after Strange Daze, I understood it. But who's counting. I show a line-up in between this tour and Hawkestra, after the Nik Turner's Reunion Band gig with Huw and before Lemmy turned up on that Doro Pesch single, it being Chadwick-Richards-Tree-Brock-House-Davey and guest appearance by Dumpy. Dumpy being there means it must be a gig I meant. No idea what though. It would be Alan's return to the fold anyway. > Hawkestra Oct 2000 (deep breath) > Brock/Bainbridge/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > Davey (yeaaay!)/Thompson/Kniveton/ > Blake/Turner/Langton/Crimble/ > Ollis/DikMik/Dettmar/Lemmy/Swindells/Powell/Slattery/ > Griffin...and Samantha bloody Fox again Also Paul Hayles, allegedly, somewhere. > ...oh i've had enough - anyone else like to take over > from here? Okay. I have the advantage of having it written down, but I don't have dates on it, just an order. Astoria December 2000, the _Yule Ritual_ gig: Chadwick-Richards-Tree- Brock-Bainbridge-House-Kniveton-Lloyd Langton-Davey-Rizz-Huggett Same line-up again early 2001 Canterbury 2001: Chadwick-Brock-House-Kniveton-Lloyd Langton-Davey and Arthur Brown, someone in the crowd told me they'd heard from Keith Kniveton that Messrs Tree and Richards had been expected but not turned up, and that was the last we saw of them... Gig or gigs shortly following have Jez Huggett and Tim Blake instead of Arthur Brown (is this the eclipse festival?) Nik takes over the Hawkestra moniker and this time gets Richards-Tree- Turner-Slattery-Griffin-Swindells-Ollis-Crimble-Dettmar-Anderson-Shaw and Jon Moss, the night of the four bassists Hawkwind now down to a core five-piece, Chadwick-Brock-House-Lloyd Langton-Davey but tour that winter adds Kniveton at two gigs and Huggett at one of them and Christmas Party adds Danny Thompson, Tim Blake and Captain Rizz, night where it became obvious that Brock-Blake-Chadwick should immediately start releasing techno records Mid-2002 Chadwick-Brock-House-Lloyd Langton-Davey-Thompson-Blake, and at one gig Rizz, Kniveton and Huggett as guests Wembley 2002 Chadwick-Brock-Lloyd Langton-Davey-Blake with guests on some numbers by Arthur Brown and on `Silver Machine' by Lemmy Winter 2002 Chadwick-Brock-Lloyd Langton-Davey-Blake-Brown, as you see them now as far as we know. 2003 no data yet. In fact nothing Hawk-related at all except Tim Blake's new album. While I have this file open, I have this mass of stuff allegedly forthcoming, which maybe people can tell me has now emerged or been cancelled: Jon Oliva, Bob Balch, Lemmy & Greg Bissonette (... Kilmister... ): Nothing Else Matters [_Metal Attack_, a Metallica trubute album] Lemmy, Vivian Campbell & Eric Singer (Kilmister... ): Shout it Out Loud [? No idea what this was, another tribute I think] DanMingo (Swindells, Richards... ): ? (was posted to the list about last year some time but never heard anything more) Luther Grosvenor (... Lloyd Langton): ? Probot (... Kilmister): Shake Your Blood [_?_, Dave Grohl's metal project, as far as I know yet to emerge, we could hardly have missed it given the man's stranglehold on the music media could we?] Psychedelic Warlords (Hawkwind): Volume 2 [this was being announced as forthcoming when _Family Tree_ came out, I assume it's now a dead duck] Dark Sun: _?_ [new album with guest appearance by Nik] Little Wing: _?_ [any kind of album] Space Ritual.net: _?_ [last hawkethos mail I got claimed that, well, it said this of the line-up of Space Ritual.net that played Uxbridge on Saturday: "this band plays a lot of new space rock ,they are currently recording a new album of space rock at a studio in wales which will be finished towards the end of the year and they recently shot a dvd of one of their concerts which will be out sometime next year" and elsewhere says that Del has been putting synth on it, which suggests some basic tracks are down. Studio in Wales must be Foel, so I assume this will be on Demi Monde or similar. Race!] Yours, Jon ObCD: Wool - _Box Set_ (Pete Stahl, the vocalist, was in a band with Scott Reeder of Unida and Kyuss, Chris Goss of Masters of Reality has guested with Kyuss and indeed Queens of the Stone Age, one Masters of Reality album has Ginger Baker on it, Ginger Baker gets you to Hawkwind, no I did not know this when I bought it, it's just really good OK) -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From mjec.storer at NTLWORLD.COM Thu Apr 17 12:24:16 2003 From: mjec.storer at NTLWORLD.COM (Mark Storer) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:24:16 +0100 Subject: HW: answer to Colin (was: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album) Message-ID: You just wouldn't let it lie!!! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 10/03/2003 From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Thu Apr 17 12:40:00 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:40:00 +0100 Subject: HW: Mudhoney & Earthlab Message-ID: Try Voiceprint or Andy G at CDS? > Is Foul play at the Earth Lab available? THe Star nation link won't open for > me. Anyone know? Cheers Stephe > From keith.henderson at PSI.CH Thu Apr 17 13:10:44 2003 From: keith.henderson at PSI.CH (Henderson Keith) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:10:44 +0200 Subject: HW: Totally random wandering thoughts Message-ID: Hi Folks... These last few months, I've not had the time available to sit and write and follow closely all the various threads on the list. Although, it's nice to see a series of threads with actual discussion going on (which keeps the list being dominated by self-promoting people, myself included, and those who like to use the list for showing off their 'witty' oneliners, which is all well and good, but only if these are included with actual content relevant to the discussion), even though some of the discussion of late is either about the fine points of marketing and economix (which I could hardly be bothered to care about, tho' I even made it to the bottom of one of DP's posts where he was certain nobody would ever venture) or else one-person's-harsh-criticism-is-another- person's-valid-constructive-advice stump-borne-proclamating (if I may make up my own such terms). Well...anyway...since the recent high-volume thread was originally based upon (roughly) something *I* started, I thought maybe I should just ask... Uh, did everybody who signed up to be in the HWCA thread actually receive the final product? And are happy with said CDRs? (As in, no quality control problems with the copying/readability in any of the discs?) Just so I know whether it's been a success or not in this particular aspect. On that note: I won't be doing this again, so if anyone else wants to take on the task of compiling future editions (if the interest is there, and it is accepted as 'legit' according to the authorities...given that these are all works of other musicians, writing credit aside), then maybe I should point out that Farflung did a recording of "Robot" that was meant to appear on the "Myth of Solid Ground" CD, that was never issued except as a self-made CDR demo version that was sold to a select few at one of the Strange Daze's. And Tommy left this off because HW were appearing there (which made it the StrangeWind event I guess)...but now he's offered one of the Robot-laden copies of his own on Ebay, and some fool (probably someone here on boc-l!) gave him $76 for it. Tommy's been pretty active on Ebay of late it seems, so you can basically do direct-merchandising from the band (sadly, this is I guess a final 'closeout' sale of the band's own 'back-catalog' stock) there. Nazbar is his 'handle' if you wanna search in the future. On the Farflung front, also another copy of 25,000 Feet per Second is available on Ebay here... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2523537141&category=1572 So, of late, I've seen a few very enjoyable concerts, including: The Gathering: who actually weren't quite as impressive as I hoped...the new album and the selection of tunes they did this night in suburban Basel were particularly laid back affairs, and they really should have done a lot more of their uptempo rock numbers, like Liberty Bell, Shot to Pieces and the like. So the male members of the band hardly did much, and although it was nice to hear Anneke sing *anything*, this show was missing something compared to the "Planet" tour I saw in Columbus in c. '99. Guru Guru: same club three days later...in one sense, the same show I saw last year in Stuttgart - the review of that show is at A-I.com - but in a *much* bigger space (about the same number of people though)...but then, the lead guitarist this time was Italian-Swiss Luigi Archetti and not Hans Reffert, so there was actually quite a big difference. And although Reffert is a talented player, I though Archetti was a much better fit to the band and a lot more psychedelic. It was a very fun show, and despite a large void of quiet in the back of the hall, bandmembers and patrons alike enjoyed themselves greatly. Porcupine Tree: tiny club in Zurich (should have swapped halls with Guru Guru...more people wedged into 1/5th the space)...sold out and sweaty. New rhythm guitarist/backing vocalist makes a huge difference in the overall sound. Very loud, nearly metallic show...and really quite amazing. They have always been *much* heavier in concert than on disc, but this show indicates that they're trying to ramp up to an eventual planned tour with Opeth in America (who Steve Wilson produces...deathish-metal aus Norway?). And although I really disliked both Dimbulb Sun and Recordings, I think In Absentia (on Lava/Atlantic Records) is really a very good album and things like 'Creator had a mastertape' were just stunning. And "Tinto Brass" likewise. They did "Darkmatter" as one encore, and even it was rather heavy as well. Richard Barbieri obviously has diminished in importance to the bulk of the performance, but there still remain quiet bits where he at least should still continue to show up. Very surprising that this band has seemingly bucked an oh-so-obvious sell-out trend, but I always retained some faith that SW was still and will always be an 'artist' first, even if he becomes very wealthy in time (still some doubt about that). I still don't care for his "artificial discography-padding" (in the guise of offering special 'collectors' items' (Hint: if it *says* "Collector's Item" on the package, it's not.) that all the fans would just *love* to have, just for that one extra special out- take track of the band tuning their instruments. Amon Duul II - in Verviers, Belgium (will do a review for A-I.com, perhaps to appear as early as the end of the month, we'll see)...haphazard at times, as I expected based on Live in Tokyo (it wasn't *that* haphazard!). Anyway, a dream come true for me, in that it completes the 'Holy Trinity' of bands (HW, Gong, AD2) at long last after waiting 20 years or so. And this was really the exact same lineup as Wolf City, so rather special. And what was really cool is that by random chance the band stayed in the same hotel as I did (same as Stuttgart with Guru Guru! Blind luck I tell you)...and so I had a nice breakfast with Lothar Meid the morning after. Next Tuesday they play in Augsburg (Spectrum Club...www.spectrum-club.de) if anybody's in the area. I wish I could make it, but probably won't, since it's not on a weekend. Coming up in the neighborhood is...Fish, Y&T, Jethro Tull (Montreaux Jazz), Burg Herzberg (Nektar, Man, etc.) and/or Kloster Cornberg (Damo, PTree, others), and maybe Wurzburg for either Magma or Anekdoten/Paathos. Oh yeah, and I'm going to be in the London area on May 3rd-4th for absolutely no reason whatsoever (given that WotW was cancelled), so I thought maybe I'd go to Dover to see this band called "Tea for the Wicked" that might be interesting. Anybody know them? Other shows in the UK that weekend seem to be by tribute bands...what the hell is the deal with tribute bands? OK, I'm guilty of seeing-in-the-past/having-interest-in-seeing tribute bands of *Hawkwind* (and indeed their recordings... see HWCA thread above), but out of all the bands I like, I can't think of *any* other target-of-tributization-band I would care to hear being 'recreated' by a bunch of pretenders... 'Cept maybe AD2 or Gong, neither of which are likely to happen any time soon. And I just really don't get Alan's Ace of Spades deal...hmm...funny, "Chemical Ali" naming his band after Saddam Hussain's playing card. :) Anyway, what's the point of all this? I thought when this all started a decade ago or so (ignoring for the moment the existence of Beatlemania-type offerings in the deeper past)...I mean, the *rampant* tributization...it would just be a 'fad' or 'phase' like that ridiculous 'unplugged' nonsense, but here it is 2003, and it's still here! There are two Pink Floyd tribute bands touring/playing in the UK at the same time in early May! (Off the Wall and Think Floyd if you *must* know.) WHY? I love Floyd, but even if these groups *could* play the songs better in some way than the group (of senior citizens) itself, it's still just not right. With music (IMHO), the original artist playing their own tune at even just 50% the 'ability' (assuming some loss of virtuosity based on mere age) of that possibly by a younger "mimic" is still far and away more preferable in my mind. Well, when I say it's not 'right,' I don't mean that they 'can't' or 'shouldn't' do it, just that I would hope that most people wouldn't give a sh*t about it unless that was *their* favorite of all time...and so in that case the whole fad should have been gone a long time ago. Oh...I saw a silly compilation in a store here called something like "The World's Greatest Air Guitar Album" (a double CD package) including both Silver Machine and Ace of Spades. That's all the time I have folx, will see you all on the other side of the Easter break (we have an Easter Monday here (in addition to the 'regular' one on Sunday)!...what the hell is that? Isn't one Easter enough per year? Or actually I could pretty much do without it all together. Grakkl (FAA) From erics at TELEPRES.COM Thu Apr 17 13:27:11 2003 From: erics at TELEPRES.COM (Eric Siegerman) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:27:11 -0400 Subject: HW:Michael Butterworth In-Reply-To: <1ece01c304f5$b98055c0$0a01a8c0@xl5>; from xl5@IINET.NET.AU on Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 11:26:30PM +0800 Message-ID: >From a letter Butterworth wrote in 1978: > I tried to put as much as I could into [the "Space: 1999" > books] in the time limit I had, and not just hack out rubbish > like I think many a writer would have done. Yeah right. Admittedly, the working conditions seem to have been less than ideal. Here's his description: http://www.space1999.net/catacombs/main/pguide/xnmba.html -- | | /\ |-_|/ > Eric Siegerman, Toronto, Ont. erics at telepres.com | | / My Wine works. However it crashes about half the time on startup. Apparently their simulation of windoze API is getting too accurate. :) - Kyle Sallee From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Thu Apr 17 13:36:42 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:36:42 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals Message-ID: > > 5 date tour Nov 1999 - > > Brock/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > with Harvey joining at 2nd gig > > Keith Kniveton on synths at 4th gig > > Nik guests for the last time with "normal" HW at 5th > > gig. > > Also Rizz 1st and, um, 5th gig it must be. Was Harvey not at the > 3rd? Also, I show Dumpy as guesting at the 4th gig and Nik there > too. Grateful for correction on this if it's not so. I believe no Simon at the 4th gig, the Cornwall one(?). It was the only one I didn't make. If it was Cornwall doesn't seem likely Dumpy would've been there and its the first I've heard. Rizz was at Wavendon Stables but arrived late & didn't manage to attract Dave's attention. Ron saw him and ccould be heard shouting 'Dave, Rizz is here!'. He ended up sitting at the front of the stage skinning up! > > There was that "Whirlwind" gig in December too, Chadwick, > Richards, Tree, Wishart, Taylor. I really did think Brock was going to let > the young things carry in without him after that. Plus Steve Bemand > I show a line-up in between this tour and Hawkestra, after the Nik > Turner's Reunion Band gig with Huw and before Lemmy turned up on that Doro > Pesch single, it being Chadwick-Richards-Tree-Brock-House-Davey and guest > appearance by Dumpy. Dumpy being there means it must be a gig I meant. No > idea what though. It would be Alan's return to the fold anyway. > Alan's return was at Hawkestra (unless you count the Hawk conventio gig at Stourbridge with Nik, Harvey, Judge Trev & Danny). Dumpy guested at the Derby Rock & Blues in '99 (his birthday) and also at the re-located Rock & Blues at Donington in '01, post-Hawkestra. From starfield at SUPANET.COM Thu Apr 17 15:20:39 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:20:39 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals - a few corrections Message-ID: Just to set the record (ahem!) straight... > > 5 date tour Nov 1999 - > > Brock/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > with Harvey joining at 2nd gig > > Keith Kniveton on synths at 4th gig > > Nik guests for the last time with "normal" HW at 5th > > gig. I played at St.Austell as did Nik - no Simon House there. > > > Hawkestra Oct 2000 (deep breath) > > Brock/Bainbridge/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > Davey (yeaaay!)/Thompson/Kniveton/ > > Blake/Turner/Langton/Crimble/ > > Ollis/DikMik/Dettmar/Lemmy/Swindells/Powell/Slattery/ > > Griffin...and Samantha bloody Fox again > > Also Paul Hayles, allegedly, somewhere. > Er...no Paul Hayles. And Mick Slattery did not play. > Canterbury 2001: Chadwick-Brock-House-Kniveton-Lloyd Langton-Davey and > Arthur Brown, someone in the crowd told me they'd heard from Keith > Kniveton that Messrs Tree and Richards had been expected but not turned > up, and that was the last we saw of them... > Actually that's not true. What I said privately to one fan (who shall remain nameless) was that they wouldn't be there. There was never any suggestion from me that they were expected. > Gig or gigs shortly following have Jez Huggett and Tim Blake instead of > Arthur Brown (is this the eclipse festival?) > > Nik takes over the Hawkestra moniker and this time gets Richards-Tree- > Turner-Slattery-Griffin-Swindells-Ollis-Crimble-Dettmar-Anderson-Shaw and > Jon Moss, the night of the four bassists > > Hawkwind now down to a core five-piece, Chadwick-Brock-House-Lloyd > Langton-Davey but tour that winter adds Kniveton at two gigs and Huggett > at one of them and Christmas Party adds Danny Thompson, Tim Blake and > Captain Rizz, night where it became obvious that Brock-Blake-Chadwick > should immediately start releasing techno records > Again not strictly true - I did 4 gigs on that tour. >> > Yours, > Jon No malice intended from me, Jon. It didn't go unnoticed you were playing Starfield during a previous mail... > From starfield at SUPANET.COM Thu Apr 17 15:21:44 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:21:44 +0100 Subject: HW: Family Tree Message-ID: Captain Black, What else do you think exists in the vaults? I mean do you think there is enough unreleased material to put at least one cd together? cheers colm Well Colm, maybe, just maybe... From mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 17:49:34 2003 From: mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK (Mark Von Bargen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:49:34 +0100 Subject: HW: Totally random wandering thoughts Message-ID: Keith H. wrote: <........>Well...anyway...since the recent high-volume thread was originally based upon (roughly) something *I* started, I thought maybe I should just ask... Uh, did everybody who signed up to be in the HWCA thread actually receive the final product? And are happy with said CDRs? (As in, no quality control problems with the copying/readability in any of the discs?) Just so I know whether it's been a success or not in this particular aspect<......................> Yeah, i can vouch that i received 4 cd's of the highest quality recordings. I meant to post on this a while ago but things get in the way like changing babies nappies, going to work etc... I was well impressed with the cd's; all 4 were full of very impressive recordings. So, thanks to everybody involved in getting this together from the people who played da' toons, through to the compilers, arrangers and copiers - thanks all. What impressed me most of all tho' was the quality of songs that had been recorded. There's one hell of a back catalogue thats built up over 30 odd years and the 4 cd's are a superb reflection of that. Now, how do I get my hands on vols 1-4? Mark From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 18:59:09 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:59:09 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals In-Reply-To: <000901c30507$e8e3f7b0$dec66b51@yourpnqspyopyu> Message-ID: Crikey, started something here didn't I? Told you I was only doing it so others could correct it... --- Nick Lee wrote: > > > 5 date tour Nov 1999 - > > > Brock/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > > with Harvey joining at 2nd gig > > > Keith Kniveton on synths at 4th gig > > > Nik guests for the last time with "normal" HW at 5th > > > gig. > > > > Also Rizz 1st and, um, 5th gig it must be. Was Harvey not > at the > > 3rd? Also, I show Dumpy as guesting at the 4th gig and Nik there > > too. Grateful for correction on this if it's not so. > > I believe no Simon at the 4th gig, the Cornwall one(?). It was the > only one > I didn't make. If it was Cornwall doesn't seem likely Dumpy would've > been > there and its the first I've heard. Rizz was at Wavendon Stables but > arrived late & didn't manage to attract Dave's attention. Ron saw > him and > ccould be heard shouting 'Dave, Rizz is here!'. He ended up sitting > at the front of the stage skinning up! The only one I did was the 1st one, Oxford. Posters outside said Dave Brock, Nik Turner, Simon House. As soon as the band took the stage somebody shouted "Where's Nik Turner?" and Dave replied "well we've got Simon House". Rizz turned up during the encore. I distinctly remember the band were really starting to motor and then Rizz came bouncing on from stage right and Dave said "Hey, it's Capt Rizz!" and the music just...died... AL __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 19:18:31 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:18:31 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals - a few corrections In-Reply-To: <001701c30516$6ecc2d80$13a86fd4@lucidzoo> Message-ID: And again... --- "Captain Bl at ck" wrote: > Just to set the record (ahem!) straight... > > > 5 date tour Nov 1999 - > > > Brock/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > > with Harvey joining at 2nd gig > > > Keith Kniveton on synths at 4th gig > > > Nik guests for the last time with "normal" HW at 5th > > > gig. > > I played at St.Austell as did Nik - no Simon House there. Had no idea Nik did more than 1 of those gigs, so thanks for that. > > > Hawkestra Oct 2000 (deep breath) > > > Brock/Bainbridge/House/Chadwick/Tree/Richards > > > Davey (yeaaay!)/Thompson/Kniveton/ > > > Blake/Turner/Langton/Crimble/ > > > Ollis/DikMik/Dettmar/Lemmy/Swindells/Powell/Slattery/ > > > Griffin...and Samantha bloody Fox again > > > > Also Paul Hayles, allegedly, somewhere. > > > > Er...no Paul Hayles. And Mick Slattery did not play. I knew that, I knew that :-) but Dave introduced Mick to the crowd right at the end, I remember Mick waving at us. > > Hawkwind now down to a core five-piece, Chadwick-Brock-House-Lloyd > > Langton-Davey but tour that winter adds Kniveton at two gigs and > Huggett > > at one of them and Christmas Party adds Danny Thompson, Tim Blake > and Captain Rizz, night where it became obvious that > Brock-Blake-Chadwick should immediately start releasing techno records > > > > Again not strictly true - I did 4 gigs on that tour. Which ones Capt? I did 3 and must have missed all the ones you did. Still, you'll make up for that by playing several/all on the May tour won't you? please, go on, you know you want to.... (would it help if I played some Starfield?) AL __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 21:25:50 2003 From: rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK (Richard Lockwood) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:25:50 +0100 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) Message-ID: Right, here goes. I'm at home by myself, as my lovely wife is off working in Nottingham for a couple of days, so for once, I've had a chance to sit at home with some beers and listen to (at high, neighbour-p1ssing off volume) some of my music. Now, the playlist included..: Motorhead - Bomber Gillan - New Orleans Girlschool - Hit and Run Budgie - Breadfan Half Man Half Biscuit - Bob Wilson, Anchorman Budgie - In The Grip Of A Tyrefitter's Hand Celtic Frost - Mexican Radio White Spirit - Back To The Grind Tygers of Pan Tang - Love Potion Number 9 You can see the kind of rock 'n' roll tip I've been on tonight... Hawkwind - Urban Guerilla (single version) Lawnmower Deth - Up The Junction Anal C**t - I Got A Job As A Councelor So I could Tell Rape Victims They Asked For It A.C. (See above) - Easy E Got AIDS from Freddie Mercury You can tell that I was drinking more than was good for me by this point... Then it got silly... A.C. - Domestic Violence Is Really Really Funny Saxon - And The Bands Played On Spider - Talkin' 'bout Rock 'n' Roll Slade - Hear me Callin' And then I made the big mistake of putting on (just one track - "Take Me Away") from "The Revolution By Night", (one of my favourite BOC tracks *ever*). And realised that the production on it sucks big dog c**k in hell. Hang on. Blue Oyster Cult - Take Me Away Of all the songs listed above (including the AC songs), it has the worst production of any of them. It's f**king awful. I'd never listened to it against properly produced albums before - only on its own (where you just listen to it as an album with some great songs (and some sh1t ones)). What the hell did Bruce Fairburn think he was doing? Now, since I've started writing this message, I've gone downstairs, and set the whole album to "play". It's not a bad album. But compared to everything else I've listened to this evening, the production on it sucks d1ck in hell! I'm going to have to finish this email, then finish my mug of tea (to all Americans reading this, that involves BOILING water, not just hot water), then go downstairs (several flights of, after buying this huge bloody house) and put Secret Treaties on. Talking of this bloody great house that we've just bought, my wife went round for a coffee with the woman who lives next door a couple of weeks ago. Apparently, the day we moved in, the bloke next door saw me with a Motorhead sweatshirt on, and decided that we were OK next door neighbours. Oh, well did he?! Bloody thanks. Just because he looks like the long lost fourth member of ZZ Top, that makes it OK does it? He still won't f***ing speak to me on the street. Maybe he's pissed off with Half Man Half Biscuit, Alien Planetscapes and Jegsy Dodd and The Sons of Harry Cross coming through his living room wall. Well, **** him, that's all I have to say. If he wants to hear some great music, I'll do him a CD of Larry Boyd's music, that he did for me before he got so ill he couldn't do anything. (Rest your soul Larry - I think you'd enjoy this rant). I suppose that's what you get for moving to a small town with a small town mentality. Is there anyone else on the list lives in Northamptonshire? Anyway, back to music... When I lived in East London, my local pub was quite happy to play tapes / CDs by Radio Birdman / The New Christs / Half Man Half Biscuit / Hawkwind / Beer Powered Noise Frenzy / Kevin Bloody Wilson / Lawnmower Deth etc, and even went as far as employing a band behind the bar (Vinyl - go and see them if you get the chance) to work while they tried to get something going for themselves. Here in smalltown, Northampton, the only way you'll get a gig is if you're a f***ing Elvis impersonator. So, anyway, to continue ranting, I get to move from a scabby two bed flat in East London (that's East London, London, not East London, Johannesburg) to a big f**k off house in the Midlands, but have to accept that I'm never going to find a decent guitarist to play music with - nor an audience for low down dirty rock'n'roll featuring shed loads of slide guitar (a la Rose Tattoo). It's a bastrad really. (And yes, I really did mean to type "bastrad"). (And where the **** do I find a drummer?) Whoo... I just read this email - It's a kind of Chris Mumford rant, isn't it? Still, if I like my music loud and with guitars, and the neighbours don't, then f***'em, and the horses they rode in on. (And I hope I'm not being a nazi.) (Well, maybe a puritanical 'Music with guitars in' bastrad). (But I can cope with that). I can't think what the original point of this email was, other than "I'll play what the **** I want, when I want (unless my wife (who listens to Culture Club and The Human League) says so)" I'll let you all know when the house warming is, and I'll shut up now. Lots of love and kisses, (and waiting for flames!) Cheers, Rich. And next time you have a beer, think of Larry. :-( From rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 21:44:15 2003 From: rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK (Richard Lockwood) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:44:15 +0100 Subject: BOC / OFF: Rant etc. Message-ID: I'm now playing Secret Treaties, and I feel much better about life. And I've just found a new box of teabags. :-) Cheers, Rich. From ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Apr 17 23:04:01 2003 From: ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM (Albert Bouchard) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:04:01 -0400 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) In-Reply-To: <005501c30549$727e7ef0$e42d9fd4@bernard> Message-ID: On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 09:25 PM, Richard Lockwood wrote: > And then I made the big mistake of putting on (just one track - "Take > Me > Away") from "The Revolution By Night", (one of my favourite BOC tracks > *ever*). And realised that the production on it sucks big dog c**k in > hell. It's a fun song to play tho. I remember I did that one back in '85 when I filled in for Downey. It was a little weird playing his parts but they're pretty good parts and he played my parts for years so? ;-) From rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK Thu Apr 17 23:08:40 2003 From: rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK (Richard Lockwood) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 04:08:40 +0100 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) Message-ID: Hey Albert, Don't get me wrong - I *love* the song. Live, it rocks. Taken on its own, it rocks. It's only the production quality I have an issue with! (Did you have any hand in writing it?) (Can't be bothered to go and look I'm afraid - I need to go to bed!) Cheers, Rich. > On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 09:25 PM, Richard Lockwood wrote: > > > And then I made the big mistake of putting on (just one track - "Take > > Me > > Away") from "The Revolution By Night", (one of my favourite BOC tracks > > *ever*). And realised that the production on it sucks big dog c**k in > > hell. > > It's a fun song to play tho. I remember I did that one back in '85 when > I filled in for Downey. It was a little weird playing his parts but > they're pretty good parts and he played my parts for years so? ;-) > From ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM Thu Apr 17 23:32:34 2003 From: ir004728 at MINDSPRING.COM (Albert Bouchard) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:32:34 -0400 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) In-Reply-To: <010001c30557$d0680f00$e42d9fd4@bernard> Message-ID: On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 11:08 PM, Richard Lockwood wrote: > (Did you have any hand in writing it?) (Can't be bothered to go and > look > I'm afraid - I need to go to bed!) That was an Aldo Nova song w/ help from some BOC folks. I wasn't around for the delivery so I can't be sure who wrote what but I know Aldo had something to do with it. Who'd have thunk he'd be writing for Celine Dion now? Yes, isn't it quite late over there now? Do you have to get up for work today too? Well, go to bed but don't forget to drink plenty of water to avoid that hangover. Al From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Thu Apr 17 18:57:46 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:57:46 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: Yes- I did didn't I. Still better to say something and be wrong than say nothing at all, I always say. I think you might have missed the point of what I was getting at here - but then I probably put it badly anyway. C'est la vie Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Jackson" To: Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album On 17 Apr 2003 at 0:19, Andrew Garibaldi wrote: > One thing occurs to me - this argument would not be happening prior to > the arrival of the internet. Patience,then, was, indeed a virtue. I > think we have all been led to expect practically daily bulletins from > every musician saying what they'd just had for breakfast and what they > intend to do today, etc etc. It's not the public's fault - it's the > perception that people are led to expect ever more and more regular > information, however inconsequential. You said a mouthful! B?C fans were the absolute most patient in rockdom, back in the day. They always took FOREVER between albums, and EB would tease us at concerts, saying the new album was coming in a couple months etc. And this was when they were signed by Columbia, and were on top of the world. Then, a year later, we'd see the new album! It got to be an inside joke with us loyal fans. EB was almost even winking when he said it--I guess, you couldn't tell for sure with those shades! theo From bernhard.pospiech at T-ONLINE.DE Fri Apr 18 03:16:31 2003 From: bernhard.pospiech at T-ONLINE.DE (Bernhard Pospiech) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:16:31 +0200 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals - a few corrections In-Reply-To: <20030417231831.77574.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Folks For some reasons I missed this thread (shame on me) Maybe this (late) info gives you a little help Here are the lineups for the last 4 years If you need some other years please let me know TOWN: HALL: DATE: DAY: LINE-UP: Pentrich Coneygrey Showground 30.07.1999 Fri BR/CH/TR/RI/DU Honiton Allescombe Farm 04.08.1999 Wed BR/CH/TR/RI/KN Carleen Wedding Party (gig 2) 11.08.1999 Wed BR/CH/TR/RI/RZ Carleen Wedding Party (gig 1) 11.08.1999 Wed BR/CH/TR/RI/RZ Oxford Zodiac 08.11.1999 Mon BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/RZ Norwich Waterfront 09.11.1999 Tue BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/BA Milton Keynes Wavendon Stables 10.11.1999 Wed BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/BA St.Austell Colliseum 12.11.1999 Fri BR/CH/TR/RI/TU/BA/KN Croydon Fairfields Hall 14.11.1999 Sun BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/BA/KN/TU/RZ Bath Porter Butt Pub 18.12.1999 Sat CH/WI/BM/DA/RI Waihi Beach Beach Hotel 04.02.2000 Fri BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Auckland Powerstation 05.02.2000 Sat BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY New Plymouth Fitzroy Tavern 10.02.2000 Thu BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Wellington James Cabaret 11.02.2000 Fri BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Wellington James Cabaret 12.02.2000 Sat BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Sydney Happy Valley Festival 18.02.2000 Fri BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Byron Bay Great Northern 22.02.2000 Tue BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Sydney Metro 24.02.2000 Thu BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Sydney ABC Studios 24.02.2000 Thu BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Auckland Powerstation 26.02.2000 Sat BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Westport Community Hall 03.03.2000 Fri BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Nelson Artery 04.03.2000 Sat BR/CH/RI/HO/BA/TY Ystalyfera Festival 21.07.2000 Fri TU/LL/OL/CB/DI Brixton Academy 21.10.2000 Sat BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA/KN/BA/TU/LE/BL/.......... London Astoria 29.12.2000 Fri BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA/KN/BA/BL/HG/RZ Croydon Fairfields Hall 25.03.2001 Sun BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA/KN/HG/RZ/LL Aldershot Princes Hall 01.04.2001 Sun BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA/HG Nottingham Rock City 02.04.2001 Mon BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA Leeds Irish Centre 03.04.2001 Tue BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA Donnington Festival 22.06.2001 Fri BR/CH/TR/RI/HO/DA/KN/LL Canterbury Festival 18.08.2001 Sat BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/KN/BW London Royal Festival Hall 10.10.2001 Wed BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/KN/BL/HG London Nikestra 21.10.2001 Sun TU/TR/RI/SL/OL/CB/DI Swindon Wyvern Theatre 03.11.2001 Sat BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Leeds Irish Centre 06.11.2001 Tue BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Nottingham Rock City 07.11.2001 Wed BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Birmingham Sanctuary 08.11.2001 Thu BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Manchester University 10.11.2001 Sat BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Liverpool Royal Court 11.11.2001 Sun BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Glasgow Garage 12.11.2001 Mon BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Edinburgh Liquid Room 13.11.2001 Tue BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Newcastle Opera House 14.11.2001 Sun BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Cardif Coal Exchange 16.11.2001 Fri BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Hitchin Town Hall 17.11.2001 Sat BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/KN Poole Arts Centre 18.11.2001 Sun BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/KN Salisbury City Hall 19.11.2001 Mon BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/KN Torquay Princess Hall 20.11.2001 Tue BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/KN/HG Brighton Concorde 2 21.11.2001 Wed BR/CH/HO/DA/LL Walthamstow Assembly Hall 24.11.2001 Sat BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/RZ Dublin Ambassador 26.11.2001 Mon BR/CH/HO/DA/LL London Forum 20.12.2001 Thu BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/BL/TH/RZ Hastings Pier Pavillon 18.07.2002 Thu BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/BL/TH Seaton Summer Camp 20.07.2002 Sat BR/CH/HO/DA/LL/BL/TH/KN/HG/RZ London Wembley Arena 19.10.2002 Sat BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW/LE Newcastle Opera House 04.12.2002 Wed BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW Hanley Victoria Hall 05.12.2002 Thu BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW Manchester Academy 06.12.2002 Fri BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW Liverpool Lomax 08.12.2002 Sun BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW Leeds Irish Centre 09.12.2002 Mon BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW Northamton Roadmenders 10.12.2002 Tue BR/CH/DA/LL/BL/BW Brighton Concorde 2 12.12.2002 Thu BR/CH/DA/BL/BW Walthamstow Assembly Hall 13.12.2002 Fri BR/CH/DA/BL/BW From rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 03:24:04 2003 From: rich at BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK (Richard Lockwood) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:24:04 +0100 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) Message-ID: Hi Al, Thanks for the warning, but fortunately, even we charity workers get Good Friday / My Mum's birthday off! :-) Cheers, Rich. (Plenty of water drunk!!!) :-) > On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 11:08 PM, Richard Lockwood wrote: > > > (Did you have any hand in writing it?) (Can't be bothered to go and > > look > > I'm afraid - I need to go to bed!) > > That was an Aldo Nova song w/ help from some BOC folks. I wasn't around > for the delivery so I can't be sure who wrote what but I know Aldo had > something to do with it. Who'd have thunk he'd be writing for Celine > Dion now? Yes, isn't it quite late over there now? Do you have to get > up for work today too? Well, go to bed but don't forget to drink plenty > of water to avoid that hangover. > Al > From chaosillumi at CHAOSILLUMI.F9.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 06:58:55 2003 From: chaosillumi at CHAOSILLUMI.F9.CO.UK (Chaos Illumination) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:58:55 +0100 Subject: HW: Spacehead gigs. Message-ID: Hi all, Spacehead have three gigs lined up over the next month. 24th April - The George, Buxton, 25th April - The Rock Garden, Easington, County Durham. 27th May - Spacehead have been announced as the supprot act for Hawkwind at Birmingham. Go to www.spacehead.iwarp.com and click on 'Gigs' or 'What's New' for more information. Regards, Marie From roger.wynne-jones at VIRGIN.NET Fri Apr 18 08:21:38 2003 From: roger.wynne-jones at VIRGIN.NET (Dumpys Rusty Nuts) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:21:38 +0100 Subject: DRN Gigs Message-ID: Greetings, Dumpy's Rusty Nuts have a few gigs coming up in the next few weeks SUNDAY 20th APRIL Legends Night Club Brickfields Business Park Gillingham Dorset SP8 4PX Tel : 01747 824411 / 826226 SATURDAY 26th APRIL The Rock Garden, Easington, County Durham SR8 3SP Phone: 0191 527 0978 THURSDAY MAY 1ST SCALLYS WESTON - SUPER -MARE Phone: 01934 413412 SATURDAY MAY 3RD GET SPLATTED RALLY 2003 At the "Summerhouse" On the A464 Nr. Shifnal, Shropshire check rally website for latest details. http://www.bugsplatz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page3.html FRIDAY MAY 30TH Dumpy's Rusty Nuts return to the Isle Of Man TT at "The Venue" Douglas. Isle of Man Cheers Roger www.dumpysrustynuts.net From freeaqua at IINET.NET.AU Fri Apr 18 11:09:31 2003 From: freeaqua at IINET.NET.AU (Bill & Cynthia) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:09:31 +0800 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) Message-ID: Bastrad. Good name for a Northampton Band. :-) Me From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Fri Apr 18 10:25:22 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:25:22 -0300 Subject: At The Shore Nightlife: One Eyed Bishops see success in U.K. (from 2day's Press) Message-ID: This full page article in The Press of Atlantic City, though fraught with a few minor mistakes with regard to dates, names and places, is worth the read. It was printed as a press boost for our show tonight. Looking very forward tot his one, and hope to see a nice turnout. http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/entertainment/nightlife/band1.shtml Peace...Mike http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 11:38:36 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:38:36 +0100 Subject: DRN Gigs In-Reply-To: <001801c305a5$1035a640$69020150@skrotwm> Message-ID: Now there's a band I'd like to see support HW again. On the last date of the Black Sword tour, Bristol Hippodrome Dec 85, Dumpy played the entire gig in a pink ballerina's outfit, tutu, tights, the lot. And he just deadpanned the crowd, "what are you fuckin' lookin' at?". Wonderful, Harvey was standing by the mixing desk laughing. Happy days. ...Now wouldn't DRN make an interesting addition to the bill at Hawkfest II? AL --- Dumpys Rusty Nuts wrote: > Greetings, > Dumpy's Rusty Nuts have a few gigs coming up in the next few weeks __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 11:47:42 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:47:42 +0100 Subject: Line-ups In-Reply-To: <196Q6w-1MGwHwC@fwd09.sul.t-online.com> Message-ID: Who's DU? --- Bernhard Pospiech wrote: > TOWN: HALL: DATE: DAY: LINE-UP: > Pentrich Coneygrey Showground 30.07.1999 Fri > BR/CH/TR/RI/DU __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 11:55:56 2003 From: mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Ian Abrahams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:55:56 +0100 Subject: DRN Gigs Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Linsley" > Now there's a band I'd like to see support HW again. On the last date > of the Black Sword tour, Bristol Hippodrome Dec 85, Dumpy played the > entire gig in a pink ballerina's outfit, tutu, tights, the lot. And he > just deadpanned the crowd, "what are you fuckin' lookin' at?". > Wonderful, Harvey was standing by the mixing desk laughing. Happy > days. Yeah, I remember that set as well. The roadies dismantled DRN's equipment while they were still playing "Its a drum solo...now its a solo drum!" *Very* funny set... Ian From mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 11:58:54 2003 From: mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Ian Abrahams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:58:54 +0100 Subject: Line-ups Message-ID: Dumpy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Linsley" To: Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 4:47 PM Subject: Line-ups > Who's DU? > > --- Bernhard Pospiech wrote: > > TOWN: HALL: DATE: DAY: LINE-UP: > > Pentrich Coneygrey Showground 30.07.1999 Fri > > BR/CH/TR/RI/DU > > __________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Plus > For a better Internet experience > http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer > > From stemfors at PIPELINE.COM Fri Apr 18 13:37:55 2003 From: stemfors at PIPELINE.COM (SForstner) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:37:55 -0400 Subject: HW: Totally random wandering thoughts Message-ID: Henderson Keith wrote: >maybe I should point out that Farflung did a recording of >"Robot" that was meant to appear on the "Myth of Solid >Ground" CD, that was never issued except as a self-made >CDR demo version that was sold to a select few at one of >the Strange Daze's. And Tommy left this off because HW >were appearing there (which made it the StrangeWind event >I guess)...but now he's offered one of the Robot-laden >copies of his own on Ebay, and some fool (probably >someone here on boc-l!) gave him $76 for it. Hey! I bid $50 for this! Admittedly much more than I normally would have bid, it was just that in this case Grenas has given his permission to tree Myth on Neo-Quark, and I was willing to pay the extra in order to make Robot (sort of) widely available. Its not like I have wads of cash to blow on "collector's editions" or anything like that. And I have to save up for the forthcoming Rhys Chatham 3 CD historical overview set. Supposedly finally out May 6th, keep your fingers crossed.. Stephan From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Fri Apr 18 14:21:52 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:21:52 +0100 Subject: fun Hawkwind guests we'd like to see In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?='s message of Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:38:36 +0100 Message-ID: I was watching Bill Bailey on room 101 last night and remembering the rumour that he's a Hawkwind fan. I wonder if he'd turn up to guest for a track or two if invited? He's clearly able to play keyboards and given his musical interests I'm sure some other instruments besides. He's also obviously a fun guy and pretty game for a laugh so I think it'd be fun to see that and any publicity from it couldn't hurt either. So apart from ex-members and the great and good of the music biz, who else would make a good guest? FoFP From mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 14:44:14 2003 From: mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Ian Abrahams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:44:14 +0100 Subject: HW: Re: fun Hawkwind guests we'd like to see Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Holmes" > > So apart from ex-members and the great and good of the music biz, who > else would make a good guest? In place of Stacia: Dita Von Teese (or is that just one for the American list members??) In place of Bob/Ron: Julian Cope (well, he did Bob on the live version of Sleeping Gas from the 12inch release of Tiny Children, IMHO) Ian From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Fri Apr 18 16:45:45 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:45:45 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals In-Reply-To: <200302211151.LAA27328@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, M Holmes wrote: > So any guesses at how "It's all a fable for fountains now" fits in with > Kitchener and WWI? Or did I mishear the lyric? That's certainly how I've always heard it, and I had from some strange part of the past the idea that it relates to Fountains Abbey at Studley Royal in Yorkshire (). But I can't remember why I think this at all. So I googled for "fable for fountains" and discovered somewhat to my surprise that this is apparently the title of a 6-minute short film by Joseph Cornell and Rudy Burckhardt from 1954-1957, apparently a sort of views-of-Brooklyn black-and-white piece which is usally grouped with two others by them, Under Brooklyn Bridge from 1953 and Aviary from 1955. I didn't know this and the information frankly leaves me none the wiser, but in case it strikes chords with anyone else I post it anyway.... Info from: . Yours, Jon ObCD: Hawkwind - _Yule Ritual_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK Fri Apr 18 17:06:04 2003 From: mark.von-bargen at O2.CO.UK (Mark Von Bargen) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:06:04 +0100 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist /rant (LONG) Message-ID: Hi, Rich's playlist included: Celtic Frost - Mexican Radio which set me thinking - Whatever happened to Thomas G Warrior, undoubted king of the death grunt? Mark From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Fri Apr 18 18:51:56 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:51:56 +0100 Subject: HW: Lemmy's selective memory in his book In-Reply-To: <030e01c2e1e7$82de58e0$644123d9@bernard> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Richard Lockwood wrote: > In the book, he also states that he'd never heard of Phil Campbell's band > "Persian Risk" until Phil turned up for the audition. > > Funny that. > > I saw Persian Risk opening for Motorhead at Bradford University in the early > eighties. > > Selective memory Mr Kilmister? I don't think we need go as far as that, when quite oridnary reasons will do the job. If you have a dekko in the liner notes of the shiny double-CD edition of _No Sleep Till Hammersmith_ you'll find this usefully relevant quote: "`The whole of that period was a blur because we were at the height of our success and our excesses,' recalls Lemmy. I'm not sure I really remember very much from that time so it's [sic] a good job that someone actually recorded it all." Never attribute to malice what can be plausibly explained by amphetamine-and-Special-Brew-filled oblivion, or something... Yours, Jon ObCD-R: Anubian Lights - _Live with Nik Turner_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 19 03:48:04 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 03:48:04 -0400 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview Message-ID: Today I invested in a rather curious publication called The Brutarian, a sort of underground music/film/literature 'zine, which has a long interview with MM. I'm afraid I have neither the time nor the inclination to type the whole thing up for re-posting here- and I don't have a scanner here so can't do it that way either. But points of HW/BOC interest are that he says he and HW are planning to repeat the live satellite link-up thing at some point in the future, he says positive things about Yule Ritual, and that Eric Bloom has asked him to do something- no further details on that. Otherwise the interview is largely taken up with his views on sci-fi and fantasy fiction and some stuff about his working methods. I'm not actually a huge Moorcock fan, but those that are would probably find this interview very interesting. In the same zine you get an interview with Colin Newman of Wire, an article on lesbian erotica, and a whole bunch of reviews including Acid Mothers Temple, Musica Transonica, and lots of cult horror video stuff. Something for everyone! If anyone wants to hunt this down, there is a contact address on the 'zine: Brutarian c/o Dom Salemi 9405 Ulysses Court Burke VA 22015 I suppose I should add the usual disclaimer for things like this- to wit: I'm not plugging it, I know nothing about it beyond the above. I don't even know how much it's supposed to cost- on one page it says $4 an issue, but on the cover it says $2.95, which is how much I paid for this issue, although there's something else that seems to imply that it normally has more illustrations, so maybe this particular issue (no. 38) is a cheapo one- off. Nick From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Apr 19 07:13:19 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:13:19 +0100 Subject: DRN Gigs In-Reply-To: <00d301c305c3$35b4aa60$3cd5883e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Thanks Ian, I'd forgotten the roadies did that, it was a nice touch. (And there was me asking who DU was in my other post - doh!) AL --- Ian Abrahams wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Linsley" > > > > Now there's a band I'd like to see support HW again. On the last > date > > of the Black Sword tour, Bristol Hippodrome Dec 85, Dumpy played > the > > entire gig in a pink ballerina's outfit, tutu, tights, the lot. > And he > > just deadpanned the crowd, "what are you fuckin' lookin' at?". > > Wonderful, Harvey was standing by the mixing desk laughing. Happy > > days. > > Yeah, I remember that set as well. The roadies dismantled DRN's > equipment > while they were still playing "Its a drum solo...now its a solo > drum!" > *Very* funny set... > > Ian __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Sat Apr 19 07:19:25 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:19:25 +0100 Subject: fun Hawkwind guests we'd like to see In-Reply-To: <200304181821.h3IILqnR020268@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: I'm sure he could do some wonderful things with HW songs. I've seen him do a Belgian-jazz version of the Dr Who Theme ("Dr Qui?") and he also "proves" that Beethoven was a Cockney by playing Moonlight Sonata with a Chas n Dave-style knees up in the middle ("'ave a banana - oy!" etc). Hmm, well, I guess you have to be there as they say... AL --- M Holmes wrote: > I was watching Bill Bailey on room 101 last night and remembering the > rumour that he's a Hawkwind fan. I wonder if he'd turn up to guest > for > a track or two if invited? He's clearly able to play keyboards and > given > his musical interests I'm sure some other instruments besides. He's > also obviously a fun guy and pretty game for a laugh so I think it'd > be > fun to see that and any publicity from it couldn't hurt either. > > So apart from ex-members and the great and good of the music biz, who > else would make a good guest? > > FoFP __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From hw at CY-B.ORG Sat Apr 19 10:39:08 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:39:08 -0400 Subject: HW: Spring Tour Info Update Message-ID: + ++ + ++ +STAR WARRIORS + ++ + NEW 24hr CREDIT CARD PHONE # FOR BRISTOL/BIRMINGHAM TOUR TICKETS: Voiceprint credit card hotline: 0500 829262 Spacehead announced as support in Birmingham --------------------------------------------------------------------- HAWKWIND SPRING 2003 MINI-TOUR: --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 18th 2003 CAMBRIDGE - The Junction Ticket Sales: 0870 771 2000 (24 hours) Online Sales: www.wayahead.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 19th 2003 NOTTINGHAM - Rock City Support: Ozric Tentacles Ticket Sales: 0115 9588484 (24 hours) Online Sales: www.wayahead.com www.ticketmaster.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 25th 2003 LONDON - Astoria Theatre Support: Doctor & The Medics Phone: UK+44 (0)20 7316 4709 (Monday - Saturday 10.00 - 18.00 hrs) Online Sales:www.MeanFiddler.com www.ticketmaster.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 26th 2003 BRISTOL - Academy Ticket Sales: 0870 771 2000 (24 hours) Voiceprint credit hotline: 0500 829262 Support: Daevid Allen's University of Errors Online Sales: www.wayahead.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- May 27th 2003 BIRMINGHAM - Academy Ticket Sales: 0870 771 2000 (24 hours) Voiceprint credit hotline: 0500 829262 Support: Spacehead Online Sales: www.wayahead.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- www.hawkwind.com + ++ + ++ +MESSAGE ENDS + + ++ ++ From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 19 11:11:37 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 16:11:37 +0100 Subject: Fw: HW: WOTEOT In-Reply-To: <004301c2e491$2443a900$fe79a8c0@KUN2P> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Chris Purdon wrote: > Hawkwind should take a leaf out of Deep Purple's book: Simon Robinson > at Purple Records has a fabulous back catalogue of well-produced > re-issues and offshoot bands. Purple Records is a really good example of how this sort of thing can work, another obvious one being the various Gong-related releases under the GAS umbrella. But Purple has a few major things going for it which Hawkwind, for one reason or another, don't. Firstly, they have a big fan-base and a long-lived fanclub which provides the initial operating capital for these things. The closest Hawkwind has had to Purple People or whatever it's called, and certainly GAS, is Brian Tawn's Hawkfan organisation, which was capable of releasing records but not at this sort of level. Hawkfan was tied up with Flickknife of course; had it been tied to EBS in the same way, had it been functional in the same way when EBS was, it could have been the way to do it. That would mean the band placing a great deal of trust in Brian, as Purple seem happy to do with Simon Robinson, and Gong with Jonny de GAS. Brian is unfortunately not in as good a position to do this stuff as those two, I don't know where Jonny gets his money or his energy from but he's an impressive example of expenditure of both. Failing him the band would have to do it, though obviously there's a lot of band involvement with both Purple and GAS as well. The other thing that really makes the difference, and which is why you see Purple releases in shops but not GAS ones, is this: Purple handles ressiue stuff for EMI. I don't know how Deep Purple swung that, but all EMI's DP reissues are mostly or entirely the work of Purple Records. It means you get a very high-class job, because these people are perfectionists, and you get decent distribution and, at the moment, startlingly low prices outside of the chain-stores. A more exact parallel here would be the work Dale Churchett did on the EMI Hawkwind remasters. Now it's been my impression that that was mostly the work of Doug Smith putting that project together but Dale did for them what Simon Robinson has done for DP and the same label marketed the results. If it wasn't Doug, I don't know how it was done, but I don't have any proof that it was. Now, as to why Dale wasn't retained by EMI to get the rest of the albums EMI now owns (the old Virgin ones) and indeed to start getting out the EBS reissues, that's got to be down to either poor sales of the remasters (and let's face it there are a fair few of the digipak versions still in racks most places one you start looking, at least in London and Cambridge and Brighton where I have been looking) or a break-up of relations at some point in the long chain between Hawkwind and EMI management. But that is what we need; a massively enthusiastic project supervisor who's willing to do a *hell* of a lot of work (as Jonny or Simon), and major-label backing and distribution to make the whole thing sell well enough to be worth their doing. At the moment I don't think Hawkwind have either and for once I don't think it's their fault, just a pity. But I'd love to know why EMI didn't keep on with _Warrior_, ASAM, and so on until their vaults were empty; as it is I can only presume what they thought would be a cash cow didn't milk that profitably. Yours, Jon ObCD: Monster Magnet - _God Says No_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 19 12:36:28 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:36:28 +0100 Subject: HW: Re: Alan Davey - Live And Beyond + Al Chemicals Lysergic Orchestra In-Reply-To: <200303101306.IAA06245@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Alfred K?ssl wrote: > Has anyone here on this list still bought those 2 CDs of Alan Davey ? How > do they sound ? Are those recordings good ? Didn't yet get the latter, but I did the former and a little while ago wrote this review of it (for another forum, hence the explanatory detail), which may be of interest to you: "Bedouin - _Live and Beyond_ "A pretty misleading package this, being sold at Bedouin gigs before they had their new album out and still available from . It looks like a Bedouin live CD-R, Bedouin of course being the fearsome space-rock three-piece who also double as a Motorhead covers band, fronted and backed by Hawkwind bass-player Ali Davey. What it is is an unlabelled gold CD-R with two live Bedouin tracks, and then two each solo studio tracks from Bedouin's three members. Not in any way the Bedouin live album it looks like. And for this you pay a tenner. Be warned. "So, having been foolish enough to buy it, what do you get? The two Bedouin tracks, one of which is actually two, have all the punch and attack you'd expect and the bowed-guitar solo in `One Moon Circles' which the new guitarist added to it since that was recorded. So this is pretty good stuff, and one of the tracks was even new at the time, a sneak preview. The solo stuff on the other hand is all pretty ropey or so-so. The two Ali Davey tracks are mostly uninterestingly programmed with occasional tinny guitar overlay and though I don't dislike any of his fast bouncy space-rock, it's very definitely home studio in sound and nothing better than baseline output. The guitarist (Glenn Povey's) tracks are like Vai out-takes without the ability. Some flair, some precise technical axe-mangling which doesn't go on too long but no real tunes either of them and very boring programmed drums which sap it of any suppleness. No vocals either. The two tracks by the drummer (Danny Thompson, son of Danny Thompson the Fairport-connected upright bass player) are by far the longest, but oddly listenable. Danny's a good drummer, which he didn't use to be, and has a lately-acquired background in American aboriginal music, and though this doesn't really come through in these percussion- only pieces they are quite peaceful pieces of meditative rhythm. The most interesting tracks but not the most musical. The others are however much less exciting than they ought to be. A poor bag when two live tracks and seventeen minutes of drumming is all that's worth the playing. 5/20" Yours, Jon ObCD: Jethro Tull - _Benefit_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 19 12:40:13 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:40:13 +0100 Subject: BOC: On Your Feet's The Subhuman In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20030310170628.0069d66c@acmenet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Bolts of Ungodly Vision wrote: > >Oooh, good one. I don't remember this ever being discussed here before. The > >CD's not on me right now, but how about, "now here's...The Subhuman?" > > > >I'll have to put my headphones on tonight and give it a listen. > > I hear it as "They'll hear it..." That's what I make it too. I always figured it was the soundman letting the band know everything was ready to go... Yours, Jon ObCD: Jethro Tull - _Benefit_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From Jeremy at DACOMBE.FSNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 19 18:07:55 2003 From: Jeremy at DACOMBE.FSNET.CO.UK (Jez Dacombe) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 23:07:55 +0100 Subject: HW:Polydor Message-ID: Hi, Do these 2 different versions also have 2 different addresses for Brian Tawn? I remember that very early ones had 19 Cordon Street rather than 29, (or was it the other way round?). Cheers, Jez ----- Original Message ----- From: Filip Vanhuyse To: Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:44 PM Subject: HW:Polydor Hello, Got a "Live '79" UK-pressing Bronze 527 (1980),distributed,I think by WEA Then another UK-pressing Bronze 527 (also 1980) but distributed(again I think,Polydor(Don't know the distribution-deals in the UK,and certainly not that long ago)) Did the distribution deals change the same year. Another strange think is the record-label itself is Bronze but mentions:"Original Sound by Bronze Records" The 2 backs are slightly different.Not the artwork,but the different record-company stuff. Any comment,Andy G,Doug P,anyone?? greetings filip From JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM Sat Apr 19 20:35:42 2003 From: JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM (Joe Loehr) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:35:42 EDT Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview Message-ID: In a message dated 4/19/2003 1:16:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > But points of HW/BOC interest are that he says > he and HW are planning to repeat the live satellite link-up thing at some > point in the future, Dunno about this. In some of the Q&A at Multiverse.org, he says he's through ("fed up" might have been the phrase) with Hawkwind (Dave)/Nik because of their court battle, both sides using him in their arguments. Joe From t.byrne at NTLWORLD.COM Sun Apr 20 06:10:33 2003 From: t.byrne at NTLWORLD.COM (Tom Byrne) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:10:33 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album Message-ID: I have to say I have no complaints with Hawkwind's activity over the last few years. I believe Kris and the band and its management have been extremely energetic. Very high quality tours, the very successful Hawkfest and two double live albums (Yule Ritual and Canterbury) of very high standard. I know that this is underpinned by a genuine passion to offer their best to their fans. I must say that I also find their web page very useful, and have found Rik more than open to any comments or constructive criticism. And as Kris points out, I cannot see how she or the others associated with Hawkwind could be more open to feedback. Regards Tom > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:19:51 -0400 > From: Hawkperson > Subject: Re: ++++ HW: Covers All Final Call/ Studio album > > > Wow Jon! > > Why do you seem to dislike us so much? > If you are a fan why are you pulling us to pieces, we work so hard and try > to consider everyones feelings and points of view......maybe you should > stop and give a little thought to ours. > > The band have been working really hard on this album, whether you believe > it or not. You try being creative in the face of adversity. Its far easier > to critcise. > > Why do you say that we fired Douglas? We did not, he is currently enjoying > retirement at his villa in Spain. Yes things change, its sad but it is > life. > > I just don't understand why you feel the need to attack us, you either like > what we are doing and buy our records or you do not. > > Why on earth would Dave pay anyone to praise his music? That is such a > discourteous thing to say that it verges on rudeness. > > Also do you think that you know something about the legal proceedings that > we do not? All I can say is try walking a mile in the other man's shoes and > perhaps you will gain a grater understanding of the other man's feelings. > > I feel so sad that I have to write a message like this when there are so > many more positive things I could be putting my energy into......but hey > maybe that's the problem? > > The new album is sounding great by the way. > > Kris > (waiting to be attacked by Jon, but feeling that she had to say something) > > ------------------------------ From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Sun Apr 20 07:43:22 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:43:22 +0200 Subject: HW:Polydor/Live 79 Message-ID: Well,seems like I'm wrong,I mixed a French & UK pressing. This is what I got: -UK,BRON 527,Bronze Records,19 Cordon St. -UK,BRON 527,Bronze Records,rather large sign on the back cover right corner "Manufactured and distributed by POLYDOR Ltd",19 Cordon St. -FRANCE,BRON 527,Bronze Records,at the left corner "Distributed by WEA",this is the only one with 29 Cordon st. Also have 2 German pressing with 2 different numbers: 202 553-270 & 202 553-320,also both 19 Cordon St. For completion:New Zealand pressing,number L 37425,19 Cordon St. greetings filip - From: "Jez Dacombe" To: Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:07 AM Subject: Re: HW:Polydor > Hi, > Do these 2 different versions also have 2 different addresses for Brian > Tawn? > I remember that very early ones had 19 Cordon Street rather than 29, (or was > it the other way round?). > Cheers, > Jez > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Filip Vanhuyse > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:44 PM > Subject: HW:Polydor > > > Hello, > > Got a "Live '79" UK-pressing Bronze 527 (1980),distributed,I think by WEA > Then another UK-pressing Bronze 527 (also 1980) but distributed(again I > think,Polydor(Don't know the distribution-deals in the UK,and certainly not > that long ago)) > Did the distribution deals change the same year. > Another strange think is the record-label itself is Bronze but > mentions:"Original Sound by Bronze Records" > The 2 backs are slightly different.Not the artwork,but the different > record-company stuff. > Any comment,Andy G,Doug P,anyone?? > > greetings > filip > > From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Apr 20 14:54:48 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 14:54:48 -0400 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:35:42 EDT, Joe Loehr wrote: >In a message dated 4/19/2003 1:16:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, >nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > >> But points of HW/BOC interest are that he says >> he and HW are planning to repeat the live satellite link-up thing at some >> point in the future, > >Dunno about this. >In some of the Q&A at Multiverse.org, he says he's through ("fed up" might >have been the phrase) with Hawkwind (Dave)/Nik because of their court battle, >both sides using him in their arguments. Well, the 'zine interview is dated Spring 2003, for what that's worth. I think we all know by now that such pronouncements are not always reliable indicators of what will or won't happen in the future. It's all part of the endless cosmic soap opera that is Hawkwind. Nick From alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK Sun Apr 20 15:44:08 2003 From: alankerren at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Linsley?=) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 20:44:08 +0100 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview In-Reply-To: <200304201854.OAA04940@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Currently reading his latest, the Skrayling Tree - skipping ahead I noticed there is a chapter called "The Hawk Wind". :-) Dreamthief AL --- Nick Medford wrote: > On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:35:42 EDT, Joe Loehr > wrote: > > >In a message dated 4/19/2003 1:16:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > >> But points of HW/BOC interest are that he says > >> he and HW are planning to repeat the live satellite link-up thing > at some > >> point in the future, > > > >Dunno about this. > >In some of the Q&A at Multiverse.org, he says he's through ("fed up" > might > >have been the phrase) with Hawkwind (Dave)/Nik because of their > court > battle, > >both sides using him in their arguments. > > Well, the 'zine interview is dated Spring 2003, for what that's > worth. > > I think we all know by now that such pronouncements are not always > reliable > indicators of what will or won't happen in the future. It's all part > of the > endless cosmic soap opera that is Hawkwind. > > Nick __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Sun Apr 20 17:03:21 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:03:21 -0400 Subject: HW:Polydor/Live 79 Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:43:22 +0200, Filip Vanhuyse wrote: > >Well,seems like I'm wrong,I mixed a French & UK pressing. >This is what I got: >-UK,BRON 527,Bronze Records,19 Cordon St. >-UK,BRON 527,Bronze Records,rather large sign on the back cover right > corner > "Manufactured and distributed by POLYDOR Ltd",19 Cordon St. >-FRANCE,BRON 527,Bronze Records,at the left corner "Distributed by > WEA",this is the only one with 29 Cordon st. > >Also have 2 German pressing with 2 different numbers: 202 553-270 & 202 >553-320,also both 19 Cordon St. > >For completion:New Zealand pressing,number L 37425,19 Cordon St. I only have one copy of Live '79, the second one Filip mentions, distributed by Polydor. The label is the standard Bronze "evolution" label, not the custom "Live" label that some pressings have. One important thing to note is that the label has the Polydor catalog number (2406 205) immediately below the Bronze catalog number (BRON 527). 19 Cordon St. Fortunately, I have two copies of 'Levitation' (blue and black vinyl, of course), which seem to provide the necessary clues: -UK, BRON 530, blue vinyl, upper left corner of back cover "Manufactured and distributed by EMI Records, ltd.", "evolution" label with the text "EMI Records Limited. All Rights of the producer ...", lower right corner of back cover "G.O. 8010 J.U." 29 Cordon St. - UK, BRON 530, black vinyl, upper left corner of back cover "Manufactured and distributed by Polydor Ltd", "evolution" label with the text "All Rights of the producer ...", Polydor catalog number (2406 209) immediately below Bronze catalog number on label, no text on lower right corner of back cover, 29 Cordon St. This indicates to me that Bronze was distributed by EMI at least through 1980, and sometime after that, distribution switched to Polydor. (And to confuse things further, a review of the Uriah Heep discography indicates that Bronze was originally distributed by Island, switched to EMI sometime around '77, and switched to Polydor sometime around '81 or '82. US distribution seems to have switched from Mercury [a Polydor subsidiary] to Warner/WEA around '77, and back to Mercury around '81/'82.) If anyone has original vinyl copies of Motorhead's albums on Bronze, it would be interesting to see which ones originally came out under the EMI distribution, and which ones came out after distribution was switched to Polydor. (The only one I have is 'The Golden Years', from 1980, under EMI. That and 'No Remorse', which has no distribution information on the jacket or labels, but does mention a 'P.R.O. Records' who I think were a direct-marketing-by-television company.) -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From akomins at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Apr 20 18:11:33 2003 From: akomins at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Arin Komins) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:11:33 -0500 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview In-Reply-To: <20030420194408.66133.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] Alan Linsley wrote: :Subject: Re: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview : :Currently reading his latest, the Skrayling Tree - skipping ahead I :noticed there is a chapter called "The Hawk Wind". :-) : :Dreamthief AL Having just finished the Skrayling Tree this morning, I can honestly say that it does not appear to have much in common with our favorite band :-( Arin (yay Dream of the Thousand Years!) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Apr 20 18:17:44 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55018) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:17:44 +0100 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview Message-ID: I didn't even know it was out. What's it about :) Arin Komins wrote: >On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, [iso-8859-1] Alan Linsley wrote: > >:Subject: Re: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview >: >:Currently reading his latest, the Skrayling Tree - skipping ahead I >:noticed there is a chapter called "The Hawk Wind". :-) >: >:Dreamthief AL > >Having just finished the Skrayling Tree this morning, I can honestly say >that it does not appear to have much in common with our favorite band :-( > >Arin >(yay Dream of the Thousand Years!) >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu >Manager of Web Systems Architecture >University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 >1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > From akomins at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Apr 20 18:39:09 2003 From: akomins at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Arin Komins) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:39:09 -0500 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview In-Reply-To: <3EA31C88.7030705@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Ben F. 55018 wrote: :Subject: Re: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview : :I didn't even know it was out. What's it about :) direct line sequel to dreamthief's daughter. Featuring, of course, the obligatory Elric appearances, along with a handful of other multiversal entities (I don't want to spoil it for you, unless you want me to, in which case, email me offlist and I will ;-) ) imho, dreamthief's daughter was better, although the beginning of skrayling tree felt very very holdstockian to me. (like dreamthief's daughter felt very lovecraftian.) Still good though. Of course, now I need to go reread the warlord and the world's pain to see if klosterheim had his origin in that book, since it's been far far too long since I've read that. Arin (rambling) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From hw at CY-B.ORG Sun Apr 20 19:05:20 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 19:05:20 -0400 Subject: HW: Bedouin Pix - W'stow 19/03/03 Message-ID: Bedouin Pix from last night's gig: http://www.bedouin.info/std190403.htm Rik From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sun Apr 20 19:11:40 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:11:40 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues In-Reply-To: <200304080143.VAA29136@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 2003, Doug Pearson wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:44:39 +0100, Captain Bl at ck > wrote: > >Thoughtz? > > Assuming that 'Warrior' & the Charisma albums are going to be reissued on > CD, and assuming that those CD's will be "remastered" (as opposed to the > Virgin issues, which sound to my ears like straight transfers from some > generation of master tape to digital through crappy 1980's-technology > converters), I hope that the mastering is done by someone with good ears, > who understands the strengths and weaknesses of Hawkwind's music > (especially as it relates to those five albums, which display a > *considerable* evolution of sound, and each have their own individual > strengths and weaknesses - to use a bunch of cliches, my ideal mastering > foci for each album would be: 'Warrior' - "powerful"; 'Astounding Sounds' - > "lush"; 'Quark' - "warm"; 'Hawklords' - "clean"; 'PXR5' - hmmmm ... that > one's tough since there's no consistent overall sound to it because of the > different sources [studio vs. live vs. demo], the way there is for the > other four - making it sound consistent will be work enough for the > mastering engineer), and who *doesn't* make them sound like every other > rock release circa 2003 (the only thing worse than a "dated" recording is > a "dated" mastering job that doesn't fit the original recording!). > > (I'd be very curious to hear if anyone particularly agreed or disagreed > with my rough characterization of those four albums.) I think I'd agree overall, but I think a danger with _Warrior_ is that in order to give it that power the bottom end might be boosted too much. I have the Griffin CD and it seems to me that the bottom end is very, not muddy, but indefinite in a liquid way, I want to say swampy. Like it was recorded in less definition than the rest of the tracks. That may be because of the bass-rolling you were talking about lower down the thread perhaps. Either way I don't think Lemmy really shines on this album but I think just bringing it up, if the CD accurately reflects the state of the master, is not going to cure that. The whole low-end would profit from more definition and I think I'd sacrifice some power for that. Of course it might be possible to have both which would be great, but I think of the four albums _Warrior_ is the only one which needs something obvious done to it to restore its intended state. ASAM could be made into a much better-sounding album with the multi-tracks as someone said, putting back the missing centre, but this would be more a remix, Zappa-style, than a remaster. Just my opinion, yours, Jon ObCD: The Deviants - _Ptooff!_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From Andreas.Stuewe at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Apr 21 07:25:05 2003 From: Andreas.Stuewe at T-ONLINE.DE (Andreas Stuewe) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:25:05 +0200 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview Message-ID: Alan Linsley wrote: > Currently reading his latest, the Skrayling Tree - skipping ahead I > noticed there is a chapter called "The Hawk Wind". :-) > I?m reading the Skrayling Tree as well - and on page 200 it says: "In their fighting the Lords of the Air produced the Hawkwinds which destroyed whole peoples and created demons who ruled in their place." Having read 2 thirds of the book I have to say that it?s not even half as good as the Dreamthief?s Daughter. Andreas (living 10 km away from Beek, a small dutch City) From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Mon Apr 21 08:35:22 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:35:22 -0300 Subject: One Eyed Bishops setlist from 'Borders' 4/18/03 Message-ID: One Eyed Bishops: setlist from 'Borders' 4/18/03 The Red Rooster Cumberland Gap The Last Time Hot & Nasty * Golden Void Smokestack Lightning Brand New Cadillac * Ride a White Swan Jewel Tom Dooley Sect Appeal Hymie the Winey Hurry On Sundown All night Worker All I want is You * * first time performed live two pics from the show are online at: http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com Black Oak Arkansas' 'Hot & Nasty' to be uploaded to site with a day or so. From bernhard.pospiech at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Apr 21 12:29:22 2003 From: bernhard.pospiech at T-ONLINE.DE (Bernhard Pospiech) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:29:22 +0200 Subject: HW: Adrian Parr is online again Message-ID: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkwind/ From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Mon Apr 21 14:24:50 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (Aerospace Age Peacenik) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:24:50 -0400 Subject: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arin Yes he did.. Mike ______________________________________________ Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace that wasn't immune to bullets -- Brigader Lethbridge-Stewart -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Arin Komins Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 6:39 PM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: HW: BOC: Moorcock interview Still good though. Of course, now I need to go reread the warlord and the world's pain to see if klosterheim had his origin in that book, since it's been far far too long since I've read that. Arin (rambling) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Mon Apr 21 14:34:57 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (Aerospace Age Peacenik) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:34:57 -0400 Subject: HW: WOTEOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmm I don't know much or rather anything about Purple. But I think that the HawkFan base is something that has not been tapped at all. I'm just saying that maybe the two are not as far apart numbers wise as it seems. The difference is that the band doesn't have the people who can take the time to tap into this. The difference could be put down to organization more than anything else. I'd contribute in a HawkSecond to anything that was needed and I'm sure many of those on this list and the bigger Hawkwind list would as well. Mike ______________________________________________ Just once, I wish we would encounter an alien menace that wasn't immune to bullets -- Brigader Lethbridge-Stewart -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jon Jarrett Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:12 AM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: Fw: HW: WOTEOT On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Chris Purdon wrote: > Hawkwind should take a leaf out of Deep Purple's book: Simon Robinson > at Purple Records has a fabulous back catalogue of well-produced > re-issues and offshoot bands. Purple Records is a really good example of how this sort of thing can work, another obvious one being the various Gong-related releases under the GAS umbrella. But Purple has a few major things going for it which Hawkwind, for one reason or another, don't. Firstly, they have a big fan-base and a long-lived fanclub which provides the initial operating capital for these things. The closest Hawkwind has had to Purple People or whatever it's called, and certainly GAS, is Brian Tawn's Hawkfan organisation, which was capable of releasing records but not at this sort of level. Hawkfan was tied up with Flickknife of course; had it been tied to EBS in the same way, had it been functional in the same way when EBS was, it could have been the way to do it. That would mean the band placing a great deal of trust in Brian, as Purple seem happy to do with Simon Robinson, and Gong with Jonny de GAS. Brian is unfortunately not in as good a position to do this stuff as those two, I don't know where Jonny gets his money or his energy from but he's an impressive example of expenditure of both. Failing him the band would have to do it, though obviously there's a lot of band involvement with both Purple and GAS as well. The other thing that really makes the difference, and which is why you see Purple releases in shops but not GAS ones, is this: Purple handles ressiue stuff for EMI. I don't know how Deep Purple swung that, but all EMI's DP reissues are mostly or entirely the work of Purple Records. It means you get a very high-class job, because these people are perfectionists, and you get decent distribution and, at the moment, startlingly low prices outside of the chain-stores. A more exact parallel here would be the work Dale Churchett did on the EMI Hawkwind remasters. Now it's been my impression that that was mostly the work of Doug Smith putting that project together but Dale did for them what Simon Robinson has done for DP and the same label marketed the results. If it wasn't Doug, I don't know how it was done, but I don't have any proof that it was. Now, as to why Dale wasn't retained by EMI to get the rest of the albums EMI now owns (the old Virgin ones) and indeed to start getting out the EBS reissues, that's got to be down to either poor sales of the remasters (and let's face it there are a fair few of the digipak versions still in racks most places one you start looking, at least in London and Cambridge and Brighton where I have been looking) or a break-up of relations at some point in the long chain between Hawkwind and EMI management. But that is what we need; a massively enthusiastic project supervisor who's willing to do a *hell* of a lot of work (as Jonny or Simon), and major-label backing and distribution to make the whole thing sell well enough to be worth their doing. At the moment I don't think Hawkwind have either and for once I don't think it's their fault, just a pity. But I'd love to know why EMI didn't keep on with _Warrior_, ASAM, and so on until their vaults were empty; as it is I can only presume what they thought would be a cash cow didn't milk that profitably. Yours, Jon ObCD: Monster Magnet - _God Says No_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From dplaw at IC24.NET Mon Apr 21 15:03:57 2003 From: dplaw at IC24.NET (Dave Law) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:03:57 -0400 Subject: HW: WOTEOT Message-ID: whilst i agree with the sentments expressed regarding getting these albums warrior, quark etc released on cd, is'nt the core problem down to who actually owns these albums and the exact location of the master tapes. don't get me wrong i think it is imperitve that these great recordings once more see the light of day and would gladly help in any possible to make this happen, but i am unsure of the feasibility of this as the question has to be asked " seeing as these are the albums all (or nearly all) hawkfans want to see released then what's the problem, there must be one, over to you hawkwind! regards dave From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Apr 21 13:16:34 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55018) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:16:34 +0100 Subject: HW: Adrian Parr is online again Message-ID: This is good news, the book can fill some gaps? Bernhard Pospiech wrote: >http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkwind/ > > > From RMayo19761 at AOL.COM Mon Apr 21 15:58:58 2003 From: RMayo19761 at AOL.COM (Robert C. Mayo) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:58:58 EDT Subject: HW: WOTEOT Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/2003 2:41:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM writes: > But I'd love to know why EMI didn't keep on with _Warrior_, ASAM, > and so on until their vaults were empty; as it is I can only presume what > they thought would be a cash cow didn't milk that profitably. Yours, > Jon > you're right, Purple Records does all the work, assembling a package that EMI mearly needs to manufacture and distribute, and keeps the cocts down so that EMI can release the stuff cheaply. But the way Purple keeps the costs so low is key as well: they do much of the work that they do for free. I correcspond with Simon and Paul often and they are always telling me what they were 'forced' to do at their own by EMI's either lack of follow-up, disregard for deadlines, non-responsiveness; and all of these deficiencies are almost always made-up for by Purple Records' willingness to throw in personal time for the love of it. EMI is contnuing the lavishly-packaged 25th anniversary remaster series with 'BURN' later this year; even after the dissapointing sales of the 'Who do we think we are?' remaster (which sold poorly partly because it wasn't a great record to begin with, but also because EMI did't get it out until it was almost the 27th anniversary!!), because the return on investment ratio is high enough. how? because Simon et al keep EMI's investment costs down by doing a good bit of the work for free. bobm From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 21 17:38:31 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:38:31 +0100 Subject: OFF: The Magic Band In-Reply-To: <200304080555.BAA29697@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,931097,00.html I foolishly didn't check mail this day, not that I could have gone at that notice, and didn't find out about this until the 10th, when, unsuccessfully trying to buy tickets for Clutch and The Spiritual Beggars that night in Stargreen (I got one at the door, in case you were worried) I saw a poster for it and brielfy had my personal sky turn black. But, on reading the article I don't worry *quite* so much. No Winged Eel Fingerling, no Zoot Horn Rollo, and Drumbo mostly not drumming... I mean, Robert Williams isn't *bad* or anything but there is no other John French, and several other possible Beefheart imitators. Couldn't they have got Tom Waits to try it, and let Drumbo do what made the Magic Band per se really special? Oh well. If they release that live recording I'm having it. Yours, Jon Ob45: The Maximum Effect - Espana/The Wrecker -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 21 18:45:10 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:45:10 +0100 Subject: HW: Ozrics Nottingham In-Reply-To: <200304081848.OAA11483@mailgate.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, cosmicdolphin wrote: > Are Ozrics Playing at Rock City? > > The Ozrics website is suggesting that they aren't (well Mike Wernings Ozrics site since their corporate site is now dead ;-) See the link below: > > http://www.geocities.com/ozrictentacles_web/#Tour This is a disturbing rumour. I'm hoping to convert someone to the Ozrics, and indeed HW if possible, at that gig, and I'm much surer she'll like the Ozrics than HW no offense meant just her style of thing more honest. The Ozrics being there is thus rather part of why I'd be going. Is anyone connected enough to confirm or deny? The web-page cited seems to suggest that the *whole gig* isn't happening, and I assume this isn't the case as mail-outs to this list and the website have both advertised the gig since this was posted I am presuming this isn't true. I wish Mark Werning could be a bit more definite... Yours, Jon ObCD: The Atomic Bitchwax - _The Atomic Bitchwax_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Apr 21 18:49:56 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:49:56 +0100 Subject: HW: Ozrics Nottingham Message-ID: Hi, Ozrics are DEFINITELY playing at this gig; they have finally confirmed. Colin Please note that this electronic mail system is not intended to form any legal contract or binding agreement. This is for information purposes only. Please also note that this message should not be interpreted as any form of valid information. You use the information contained in this message at your own risk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Jarrett" To: Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:45 PM Subject: Re: HW: Ozrics Nottingham > On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, cosmicdolphin wrote: > > > Are Ozrics Playing at Rock City? > > > > The Ozrics website is suggesting that they aren't (well Mike Wernings Ozrics site since their corporate site is now dead ;-) See the link below: > > > > http://www.geocities.com/ozrictentacles_web/#Tour > > This is a disturbing rumour. I'm hoping to convert someone to the > Ozrics, and indeed HW if possible, at that gig, and I'm much surer she'll > like the Ozrics than HW no offense meant just her style of thing more > honest. The Ozrics being there is thus rather part of why I'd be going. Is > anyone connected enough to confirm or deny? The web-page cited seems to > suggest that the *whole gig* isn't happening, and I assume this isn't the > case as mail-outs to this list and the website have both advertised the > gig since this was posted I am presuming this isn't true. I wish Mark > Werning could be a bit more definite... Yours, > Jon > > ObCD: The Atomic Bitchwax - _The Atomic Bitchwax_ > -- > "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine > law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient > to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the > delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) > From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Mon Apr 21 19:05:39 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:05:39 +0100 Subject: Arthur Brown In-Reply-To: <200304090751.DAA07153@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2003, Doug Pearson wrote: > On Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:07:33 +0100, Jon Jarrett > wrote: > >On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Doug Pearson wrote: > >> During much of the 1980s, Arthur was living in Texas (hmmmm ... like > >> Michael Moorcock does), and members of Austin spacerock band ST37 did > >> some work with him. > > > > Anyway, back on topic: is that right, Doug? Which recordings are > >they on? Cause you know, that would be *interesting*... > > I don't think there are any recordings. I'd have to check with Scott (he's > on the Yahoo! Hawkwind list), and the connection may be no more than Dave > Cameron playing drums for him (as he did for Roky Erickson) ... I'm not > sure ... No information. My limited discography has the 1983 Texas line-up as Scott Morgan on synth, Sterling Smith on mellotron and one D. Aldridge on percussion plus Mr Brown. Which must have been an interesting line-up but doesn't contain any ST37 people that I can see. But this reference doesn't mention _Black and Brown_ so what's it worth, and the 1983 line-up presumably wasn't the 1993 one, and so on. There's an Elevators-Hawkwind link in here if we play it right though :-) > And did anyone mention Arthur doing narration for the Pretty Things' > (including, of course, first-Hawkwind-album-producer Dick Taylor) 30th > anniversary performance of 'S.F. Sorrow' (also featuring David Gilmour)? I don't think so but I have got the album. Brown is very good, Gilmour is quite fun, Dick Taylor is a bit disappointing and the others are all pretty solid. I never heard the original album but this one's quite fun. Its official title is _Resurrection_. Some of it's not very psych (not that they're supposed to be) but the way they get from `Baron Saturday' to `Well of Mystery' is pretty darn brain-twisting given how few effects they're using... Yours, Jon ObCD: Captain Beyond - _Captain Beyond_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From erics at TELEPRES.COM Mon Apr 21 20:14:49 2003 From: erics at TELEPRES.COM (Eric Siegerman) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:14:49 -0400 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) In-Reply-To: <005501c30549$727e7ef0$e42d9fd4@bernard>; from rich@BEERPOWEREDNOISEFRENZY.CO.UK on Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:25:50AM +0100 Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:25:50AM +0100, Richard Lockwood wrote: > Blue Oyster Cult - Take Me Away > > Of all the songs listed above (including the AC songs), it has the worst > production of any of them. > > It's f**king awful. So ... does it manage to out-f**king-awful Doremi's? :-) (One of my two favourite HW albums, I hasten to point out!) > Here in smalltown, Northampton Speaking of which, what *is* a roadmender anyway? Paving equipment? The people who operate same? Some weird UK idiom that I couldn't begin to guess from the word itself? -- | | /\ |-_|/ > Eric Siegerman, Toronto, Ont. erics at telepres.com | | / My Wine works. However it crashes about half the time on startup. Apparently their simulation of windoze API is getting too accurate. :) - Kyle Sallee From erics at TELEPRES.COM Mon Apr 21 20:17:00 2003 From: erics at TELEPRES.COM (Eric Siegerman) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:17:00 -0400 Subject: BOC / HW / OFF: Tonight's playlist / Revolution by Night / General Chat / rant (LONG) In-Reply-To: <008901c305bc$838f4120$b1e9fea9@iinet>; from freeaqua@IINET.NET.AU on Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 11:09:31PM +0800 Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 11:09:31PM +0800, Bill & Cynthia wrote: > Bastrad. Good name for a Northampton Band. :-) When Ron Tree guests with Steeleye Span :-) -- | | /\ |-_|/ > Eric Siegerman, Toronto, Ont. erics at telepres.com | | / My Wine works. However it crashes about half the time on startup. Apparently their simulation of windoze API is getting too accurate. :) - Kyle Sallee From mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Apr 22 01:27:57 2003 From: mail at ABRAHAMSI.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Ian Abrahams) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:27:57 +0100 Subject: HW: Adrian Parr is online again Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben F. 55018" To: Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:16 PM Subject: Re: HW: Adrian Parr is online again > This is good news, the book can fill some gaps? Should be a good selection of Hawkwind books to choose from coming up ;-) Ian From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 22 07:14:33 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:14:33 +0100 Subject: HW: Ozrics Nottingham In-Reply-To: <003d01c30858$54a74b20$883dfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Colin J Allen wrote: > Ozrics are DEFINITELY playing at this gig; they have finally confirmed. Thanks for that Colin, plans will now unroll :-) Yours, Jon ObCD: Black Label Society - _Sonic Brew_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 22 08:57:37 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:57:37 +0100 Subject: OFF: Re: other bands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 2003, Chris Allen wrote: > From: Jon Jarrett > > > > Clutch. One of the finest bands currently going... > > I'll have to second this. I'm a very recent convert because they're one of > the few heavy rock bands going at the moment who actually groove. I find > this to be of immense importance. Yup, what he said. > Apparently John Garcia is working as a Dental Assistant at the minute. > Funny old world. He was gigging with Hermano not so long ago, it's not completely defunct. There's an interview somewhere on stonerrock.com where he talks about the situation as it looked this time last year, when the first Hermano album had just come out. Basically, as I remember it, Man's Ruin had just gone down the tubes and the other label on which Unida had stuff had done so also, so their entire back catalogue was witing for some other label to buy it up from the creditors and no-one could be persuaded too. So Unida was still sort of alive, as in they were hoping to be touring again in a low-key fashion that year and maybe recording stuff, but they couldn't get anyone to fund anything and it was generally disheartening. Meanwhile the guy behind Hermano was willing to pay for John to come to Europe and sing their stuff in a studio for a week so that was happening more obviously even though it was only ever supposed to be a one-off, because since there was some money behind it of some sort it kept moving. While he was over here he also wound up singing on Orange Goblin's most recent album, _Coup de Grace_, which only goes to show that it's too long since they had an album out too. Unida meanwhile still seem to be waiting for someone with more money than them to buy their back catalogue. > What about The Masters of Reality, Kyuss/QotSA producer Chris Goss' > band? I bought their 1st LP when it was released and have loved it ever > since - 1999's Welcome to the Western Lodge was also fanastic. The other two > studio albums disappointed me a little - maybe the live CDs will be better. I know *of* them, because apart from anything else they're the Kyuss/QotSA (and therefore Nirvana!) link to Hawkwind, but I've never knowingly heard any. They're on the list though. Yours, Jon ObCD: The Mothers of Invention - _Ahead of Their Time_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Tue Apr 22 11:13:05 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (Aerospace Age Peacenik) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:13:05 -0400 Subject: HW: Ozrics Nottingham In-Reply-To: <003d01c30858$54a74b20$883dfea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Colin J Allen Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:50 PM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: HW: Ozrics Nottingham (Snip) Colin Please note that this electronic mail system is not intended to form any legal contract or binding agreement. This is for information purposes only. Please also note that this message should not be interpreted as any form of valid information. You use the information contained in this message at your own risk. ++++++++++++++++++++ That certainly confirms a theory. MM From js3619 at ACMENET.NET Tue Apr 22 12:43:08 2003 From: js3619 at ACMENET.NET (Bolts of Ungodly Vision) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:43:08 -0400 Subject: BRAIN: Beach Party updates! Message-ID: Check out when you, too, can have fun fun fun in the sun sun sun (or a bar, take your pick.) at cellsum.com! more tourdates! more niacin and Polysobrate 80! and mp3-ful goodnes! Jason From kg at THING.DE Tue Apr 22 14:35:15 2003 From: kg at THING.DE (kgerwers) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:35:15 +0200 Subject: Calvert - performance / spoken words texts...help?! Message-ID: hello everybody.... behind the stage work on the Calvert site continues ... besides o. new stuff and some real rarities I'd like to add those texts that Calvert performed live (mostly in the early 80s, I believe) as part of his "cabaret" programs (Krankschaft Cabaret / "Quark, Strangeness & Charm o.a.) Here's a list of texts I have on tape(s) from various performances: Big Bad Girls from London In Defense of the House of Lords Yorkshire Ripper Smoking Vernacular Irish Non-Rebel Song Dance of 39 Steps England without the Times Oswald Says True Brit High Seas unfortunately...as (almost) always, the sound quality is rather bad and not being a native-speaker I have troubles in transcribing these.... I am sure there are some of you out there, who have recordings of these shows as well - and if you could help me out and 'decipher' these text, it would be much appreciated... - and finally these texts would come into the open for everyone... there's also a sketch called "Churchill's secret Rock Deal" - based on the poem from "Centigrade 232" - it was performed at the London Arts Theatre on 13.6.81 by Pete Pavli and Jill Riches - if anyone can decipher that as well... and - of course - if you know of any other texts on tape or paper, I'd love to hear from you.... what I already got are the "Telstar" and "The little bit that won't lie down" texts - so, you don't have to bother 'bout these... many thanks for your help in advance... k.g. ps: does anyone know what happened to Trevor Hughes? is he still publishing his magazine? From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Apr 22 15:43:04 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:43:04 +0100 Subject: HW: Ozrics Nottingham Message-ID: Which theory would that be then? I am sure that you are dying to enlighten us! Please note that this electronic mail system is not intended to form any legal contract or binding agreement. This is for information purposes only. Please also note that this message should not be interpreted as any form of valid information. You use the information contained in this message at your own risk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aerospace Age Peacenik" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:13 PM Subject: Re: HW: Ozrics Nottingham > -----Original Message----- > From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Colin J Allen > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:50 PM > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > Subject: Re: HW: Ozrics Nottingham > > > (Snip) > > Colin > > Please note that this electronic mail system is not intended to form any > legal contract or binding agreement. This is for information purposes only. > Please also note that this message should not be interpreted as any form of > valid information. You use the information contained in this message at your > own risk. > > > ++++++++++++++++++++ > > That certainly confirms a theory. > > MM > From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 23 02:31:29 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:31:29 -0400 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:11:40 +0100, Jon Jarrett wrote: > I think I'd agree overall, but I think a danger with _Warrior_ is >that in order to give it that power the bottom end might be boosted too >much. Yeah, the reason I used the word "power" was because there's a LOT going on with that album (as someone else mentioned), and I had a tough time finding a more specific description. >I have the Griffin CD and it seems to me that the bottom end is >very, not muddy, but indefinite in a liquid way, I want to say >swampy. Like it was recorded in less definition than the rest of the >tracks. That may be because of the bass-rolling you were talking about >lower down the thread perhaps. Either way I don't think Lemmy really >shines on this album but I think just bringing it up, if the CD accurately >reflects the state of the master, is not going to cure that. I think that's because Lemmy plays Gibson Thunderbird instead of a Rickenbacker bass on this album (even though his Ric had a T-bird pickup in it!). You do an excellent job of describing the tonal differences between those two instruments. >The whole >low-end would profit from more definition and I think I'd sacrifice some >power for that. Of course it might be possible to have both which would be >great, but I think of the four albums _Warrior_ is the only one which >needs something obvious done to it to restore its intended state. That's the kind of thing that *can* be done in remastering (assuming a good engineer with good ears in a good room with good equipment) >ASAM >could be made into a much better-sounding album with the multi-tracks as >someone said, putting back the missing centre, but this would be more a >remix, Zappa-style, than a remaster. Just my opinion, You may be right. I believe that ASAM *could* be salvaged in remastering (probably with large amounts of analog eq and multiband compression, and, of course, the aforementioned engineer etc.) From Alogilvy at AOL.COM Wed Apr 23 07:13:34 2003 From: Alogilvy at AOL.COM (Alistair Ogilvy) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:13:34 EDT Subject: HW:Bass Tabs Message-ID: Hi Anyone know where I can find some free HW bass tabs? Alistair From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Wed Apr 23 08:28:27 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:28:27 -0300 Subject: SLOTERDIJK announces lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2 Message-ID: SLOTERDIJK announcing lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2003! Mike Burro: Guitar, Vocals http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Jay Adcock: Drums, percusssion & triggered samples http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Phil Smith: lead guitars (from Headsmith, Ethereal Counterbalance & The One Eyed Bishops www.Headsmith.co.uk www.achingcellar.co.uk Dave Adams: Bass (from Assassins of Silence) www.assassinsofsilence.com Miles 'Milo Black' Walsh: synths, analog generations etc www.assassinsofsilence.com http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/148/milo_black.html Michael 'Captain Blue Skin' Blackman: synth (from Alien Dream) www.alien-dream.com Possible special guests too!! Looking forward to seeing you there!!! For complete up to date information on this event, and how to gain entry, please visit: www.Hawkwind.com (see Hawkfest 2003 link) For new One Eyed Bishops dates see: http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com The OEBs will be teaming up with The Brain Surgeons for two shows in October. October 18th: The Zen House; New Brunswick, New Jersey (details to follow shortly) www.cellsum.com October 19th: TBA From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Wed Apr 23 09:29:56 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:29:56 -0300 Subject: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] SLOTERDIJK announces lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2 Message-ID: w wIIn our haste we neglected to mention that Miles Walsh is also a member of 'Assassins of Silence' Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: Burro Mike Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:32 AM To: boc-l at listserv.spc.edu; Hawkwind at yahoogroups.com; sloterdijk-pod at yahoogroups.com; spunkmesiter at aol.com; rbose at talk21.com; warrendavis180 at msn.com; jmp at monitor.net; tkperkins at earthlink.net; drehner at head-cfa.harvard.edu; ed at riverrats.net; hickam at clas.net; dreamwnd at apci.net; p.addison at t-online.de; headsmithuk at yahoo.co.uk; RobinJED at manchok.freeserve.co.uk; perone.1 at osu.edu; John at space-rock.co.uk; kim at blissaquamarine.net Subject: [SLOTERDIJK-Pod] SLOTERDIJK announces lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2 SLOTERDIJK announcing lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2003! Mike Burro: Guitar, Vocals http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Jay Adcock: Drums, percusssion & triggered samples http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Phil Smith: lead guitars (from Headsmith, Ethereal Counterbalance & The One Eyed Bishops www.Headsmith.co.uk www.achingcellar.co.uk Dave Adams: Bass (from Assassins of Silence) www.assassinsofsilence.com Miles 'Milo Black' Walsh: synths, analog generations etc www.assassinsofsilence.com http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/148/milo_black.html Michael 'Captain Blue Skin' Blackman: synth (from Alien Dream) www.alien-dream.com Possible special guests too!! Looking forward to seeing you there!!! For complete up to date information on this event, and how to gain entry, please visit: www.Hawkwind.com (see Hawkfest 2003 link) For new One Eyed Bishops dates see: http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com The OEBs will be teaming up with The Brain Surgeons for two shows in October. October 18th: The Zen House; New Brunswick, New Jersey (details to follow shortly) www.cellsum.com October 19th: TBA Yahoo! Groups Sponsor "One Is" Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From freeaqua at IINET.NET.AU Wed Apr 23 10:48:45 2003 From: freeaqua at IINET.NET.AU (Bill & Cynthia) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:48:45 +0800 Subject: SLOTERDIJK announces lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2 Message-ID: Far out - what a line up! But whose that Michael Blackman? Cheers Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burro Mike" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 8:28 PM Subject: SLOTERDIJK announces lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2 SLOTERDIJK announcing lineup for Hawkwind Hawkfestival 2003! Mike Burro: Guitar, Vocals http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Jay Adcock: Drums, percusssion & triggered samples http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com www.mp3.com/sloterdijk Phil Smith: lead guitars (from Headsmith, Ethereal Counterbalance & The One Eyed Bishops www.Headsmith.co.uk www.achingcellar.co.uk Dave Adams: Bass (from Assassins of Silence) www.assassinsofsilence.com Miles 'Milo Black' Walsh: synths, analog generations etc www.assassinsofsilence.com http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/148/milo_black.html Michael 'Captain Blue Skin' Blackman: synth (from Alien Dream) www.alien-dream.com Possible special guests too!! Looking forward to seeing you there!!! For complete up to date information on this event, and how to gain entry, please visit: www.Hawkwind.com (see Hawkfest 2003 link) For new One Eyed Bishops dates see: http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com The OEBs will be teaming up with The Brain Surgeons for two shows in October. October 18th: The Zen House; New Brunswick, New Jersey (details to follow shortly) www.cellsum.com October 19th: TBA From cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET Wed Apr 23 14:24:19 2003 From: cosmicdolphin at FIREFLYUK.NET (cosmicdolphin) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:24:19 -0500 Subject: HW: Spacehead gigs. Message-ID: Just out of interest, anyone know what the closest railway station is to the 'Rock Garden' Spacehead gig at Easington on 25th April. Sunderland?? Trying to figure out whether it's logistically possible ;-) for those of us in the world of non-vehicular transport. Anyone know what the Rock Garden is like as a venue? What's the Spacehead lineup for the gig? Rich W ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chaos Illumination" To: Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 5:58 AM Subject: HW: Spacehead gigs. Hi all, Spacehead have three gigs lined up over the next month. 24th April - The George, Buxton, 25th April - The Rock Garden, Easington, County Durham. 27th May - Spacehead have been announced as the supprot act for Hawkwind at Birmingham. Go to www.spacehead.iwarp.com and click on 'Gigs' or 'What's New' for more information. Regards, Marie From youless at LVCM.COM Wed Apr 23 16:28:34 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:28:34 -0400 Subject: HW:Bass Tabs Message-ID: AFAIK, there are only 2 Hawkwind bass tabs out there (and one of them is for an ICU song) - and they're here in the archives of the BOC-L/Hawkwind mailing list... Free Fall: http://listserv.spc.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0104B&L=BOC-L&P=R366&m=42124 Watching The Grass Grow: http://listserv.spc.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0005D&L=BOC-L&P=R2615 Hope that helps! Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:13:34 EDT, wrote: >Hi >Anyone know where I can find some free HW bass tabs? > >Alistair From js3619 at ACMENET.NET Wed Apr 23 19:33:10 2003 From: js3619 at ACMENET.NET (Bolts of Ungodly Vision) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:33:10 -0400 Subject: BOC: Black and Blue... to preorder? Message-ID: from the webpage: List Price: $19.98 Price: $17.98 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details. You Save: $2.00 (10%) Availability: Release date to be announced:The release date for this video has not been finalized. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. Technical Information Release Information: Studio: Ventura Distribution Theatrical Release Date: 1980 DVD Release Date: January 1, 2010 (That's what it really says!) Run Time: 80 minutes Edition Details: ? Encoding: Region 1 ? ASIN: B00006IUGO Wacky stuff, eh? J ---------------------------------------------------- "Visit Capital.NET online at http://www.capital.net" From hw at CY-B.ORG Wed Apr 23 20:27:45 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:27:45 -0400 Subject: HW: Hawkfest Tickets Message-ID: + ++ + ++ + STAR WARRIORS + ++ + + HAWKFEST TICKETS are now available on a HOTLINE telephone number: 0500 829262 (Overseas UK +44 (0)500 829262) + ++ + + +MESSAGE ENDS + + + From adam at INBUILD.COM.AU Wed Apr 23 23:14:31 2003 From: adam at INBUILD.COM.AU (Adam Brocklehurst) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:14:31 +1000 Subject: HW: PXR 5 Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get a cd copy of this? Adam From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Thu Apr 24 02:17:56 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:17:56 +0200 Subject: HW: PXR 5 Message-ID: Well it's all a matter how much you want to pay(no,I don't have a spare copy).Have a look at e-bay and gasp. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Brocklehurst" To: Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:14 AM Subject: HW: PXR 5 Does anyone know where I can get a cd copy of this? Adam From Chaosillumi at CHAOSILLUMI.F9.CO.UK Thu Apr 24 03:30:18 2003 From: Chaosillumi at CHAOSILLUMI.F9.CO.UK (Chaosillumination) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:30:18 +0100 Subject: OFF: Spacehead gigs. Message-ID: Hi, Lineup should be Mr Dibs, Martyn Hasbeen, Keith Barton and Robin Julian. Sorry, I can't help with your other questions though. I should also point out that the Buxton gig tonight is free entry but there will be a bucket passed around throughout the day to raise funds for Cancer Research, Christie Hospital NHS Trust where Mr Dibs' sister was treated. Cheers, Neil. ----- Original Message ----- From: "cosmicdolphin" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 7:24 PM Subject: Re: HW: Spacehead gigs. > What's the Spacehead lineup for the gig? > > Spacehead have three gigs lined up over the next month. > 24th April - The George, Buxton, > 25th April - The Rock Garden, Easington, County Durham. > > 27th May - Spacehead have been announced as the supprot act for Hawkwind at > Birmingham. > > Go to www.spacehead.iwarp.com and click on 'Gigs' or 'What's New' for more > information. > From si at SICKTHINGSUK.CO.UK Thu Apr 24 06:13:40 2003 From: si at SICKTHINGSUK.CO.UK (Si Halley) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:13:40 +0100 Subject: HW: Classic Rock news Item Message-ID: >From the new issue (May 2003) of Classic Rock. There`s a small new pic as well of Dave, Alan, Richard and Arthur. STUDIO REPORT HAWKWIND HAWKWIND HAVE ALMOST COMPLETED A new album at the home studio of their guitarist Dave Brock. Though currently selfrecorded, it's highly possible that the band may bring in outside ears to oversee their first record for new label SPV Records. The as yet untitled album is loosely based on a thesis written by Richard Morley, who has also contributed some lyrics. "It's to do with computer technology sucking our souls, and mobile phones giving us brain damage," Brock explains. "Once upon a time, just one in 30 people had a build-up of cancer within their body, now it's one in seven. Even the amount of lead on the road from the exhaust of cars is causing damage - it gets trodden into houses and impregnates the body. "It's a whole cycle of destruction, involving population overload and the importing of potentially contaminated vegetables from the Third World." Guests on the record include 70s new waver Lene Lovich, who plays an android, and Arthur Brown, who narrates a section about late Hawkwind poet Bob Calvert. "That was Arthur's suggestion," Brock says. "But we've also got Tim Blake on there, possibly a few others. Musically there's an awful lot going on Besides all the heavy rock and spacey stuff there's a full-on dance track and lots of electronic parts. The biggest problem is making sure they flow into one another. We've recorded 15 tracks, but there's some weeding out to do." Among the tracks up for inclusion are 'The Reality Of Poverty', 'Population Overload', 'Techno Land', 'The Molecular Family', 'Asylum Island' and 'One World Future'. The album isn't likely to be released until late September. In the meantime, Hawkwind have lined up the following shows: Cambridge junction May 18, London Astoria 25, Bristol Academy 26, Birmingham Academy 27 They are also finalising arrangements for the second annual Hawkfest, to take place between August 8-1o For details go to www.hawkwind.com The Alice Cooper Trivia File: www.sickthingsuk.co.uk UK Unofficial Alice Cooper Convention: www.sickcon.co.uk From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Apr 24 06:40:48 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:40:48 +0100 Subject: Attan Scottish Hawkfans Message-ID: Brighawk will be playing the Martell nightclub in Falkirk tonight. A group of us saw them just before xmas last year and a fine time was had by all. http://www.geocities.com/brighawk/ FoFP From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Apr 24 10:48:13 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55018) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:48:13 +0100 Subject: Attan Scottish Hawkfans Message-ID: Is this Brigit Wishart's band? M Holmes wrote: >Brighawk will be playing the Martell nightclub in Falkirk tonight. A >group of us saw them just before xmas last year and a fine time was had >by all. > >http://www.geocities.com/brighawk/ > >FoFP > > > From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Thu Apr 24 11:02:44 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:02:44 +0100 Subject: Attan Scottish Hawkfans In-Reply-To: Ben F. 55018's message of Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:48:13 +0100 Message-ID: Ben F. 55018 writes: > Is this Brigit Wishart's band? Nah. Just a cover band. Good laugh tho. > > M Holmes wrote: > > >Brighawk will be playing the Martell nightclub in Falkirk tonight. A > >group of us saw them just before xmas last year and a fine time was had > >by all. > > > >http://www.geocities.com/brighawk/ > > > >FoFP > > > > > > > From m.j.crook at TALK21.COM Thu Apr 24 15:39:25 2003 From: m.j.crook at TALK21.COM (Mick Crook) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:25 -0400 Subject: HW: Classic Rock news Item Message-ID: There's also a bit about the new album and the chap called Richard Morley at - http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/hawkinter2002.htm Also features the capatin in waxing philosophical. Mick -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com From Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM Thu Apr 24 17:45:00 2003 From: Deadearnest at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Andrew Garibaldi) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:45:00 +0100 Subject: HW: PXR 5 Message-ID: Well, we mite not have any of that - but we just had some more Mike Moorcock "New Worlds Fair" Box Set walk through the door here at CDS towers, so that should take the shine off anyone trying to get huge prices for that on E-Bay-lol. Andy G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Filip Vanhuyse" To: Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 7:17 AM Subject: Re: HW: PXR 5 > Well it's all a matter how much you want to pay(no,I don't have a spare > copy).Have a look at e-bay and gasp. ;-) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adam Brocklehurst" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:14 AM > Subject: HW: PXR 5 > > > Does anyone know where I can get a cd copy of this? > > Adam From mr_bt at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Apr 24 17:52:52 2003 From: mr_bt at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (colm mcwilliams) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:52:52 +0100 Subject: Al Jourgensen's interview - Hawkwind related Message-ID: If anyones interested heres a link to an Al Jourgensen of the band Ministry interview where he mentions hawkwind as an infulence. http://www.westword.com/issues/2003-04-03/music.html/1/index.html Maybe one day he might do a cover of hassan I Shaba? Now that would be something! cheers colm From lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET Thu Apr 24 17:57:02 2003 From: lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET (Stephe Lindas) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:57:02 -0400 Subject: HW: PXR 5 Message-ID: How much is it? I just want the book though. Cheers Stephe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Garibaldi" To: Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Re: HW: PXR 5 > Well, we mite not have any of that - but we just had some more Mike Moorcock > "New Worlds Fair" Box Set walk through the door here at CDS towers, so that > should take the shine off anyone trying to get huge prices for that on > E-Bay-lol. > Andy G. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Filip Vanhuyse" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 7:17 AM > Subject: Re: HW: PXR 5 > > > > Well it's all a matter how much you want to pay(no,I don't have a spare > > copy).Have a look at e-bay and gasp. ;-) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Adam Brocklehurst" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:14 AM > > Subject: HW: PXR 5 > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can get a cd copy of this? > > > > Adam From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 24 23:47:46 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:47:46 -0400 Subject: HW: Classic Rock news Item Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:25 -0400, Mick Crook wrote: >There's also a bit about the new album and the chap called Richard Morley at - > >http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/hawkinter2002.htm More on Mr Morley here: http://www.daijhi.com/biography.htm certainly had an interesting life. Nick From lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET Fri Apr 25 07:09:57 2003 From: lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET (Stephe Lindas) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:09:57 -0400 Subject: John Harrison in the 70's Message-ID: Can anyone confirm that John Harrison that played with Roy Buchanan in the 70's is the same as the cat now playing in Spaceritual.net? And HW in 1970? Cheers Stephe From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Fri Apr 25 10:35:51 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:35:51 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Studio album In-Reply-To: <200304142320.TAA15108@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Doug Pearson wrote: > Unfortunately, this link wasn't posted on this list (only the Yahoo! one), > but this interview with Alan Davey seems to include more "hard facts" about > the new album than I've seen from any other source (someone point me to it > if there IS a better source of information!). I'm not sure of the date of > the interview, but it must be from earlier this year since it refers to the > Walthamstow Xmas gig in past tense ... > > http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/alandaveyint.htm That's a good interview all round; full of Alan's personality :-) Thanks for posting the link here. I hope the implication that Huw and Simon aren't involved is wrong though. That would knacker `Strange Fruit' in the selection too... And absence of Simon's violin as he plays it now is just a terrible thing whatever else his contribution might or might not be. I hope whatever is ailing him or otherwise preventing him showing up to things is soon over. > > New tracks, leaving aside stuff released on _In Your Area_: `Anna > >Seed', `Spacebrock' & `Money Tree', whatever the name of Ron's rework of > >`The Owl and the Pussycat' was, `Earth Calling' in two different versions > >and I *think* there was another Ron one about aliens in 1999. > > "Eeda-Karan" or something like that, which was just a spoken bit that > included a "genetic engineering" reference - surprise surprise ;^). Is > that what you're thinking of? No, something more epheremal than that that only got a couple of airings. I've had a look but I can't find the gig review that mentioned it and I'm not sure it might not have been `Anna Seed' in its last appearace anyway, but my impression was that the reviewer had seen them both in successive gigs. Hmm. It couldn't be `Eedeakaran' anyway, because I scam this spelling from the sleeve of _In Your Area_ where the words of that poem appear under that title, and if you listen Ron's intoning it in the background of `Prairie' on that very album, so that has in fact been released. And to be utterly fair to Ron, there at least it contains no reference to genetic engineerin, though I'm not convinced it didn't develop some as Ron tried to turn it into a fear piece to shout at the audience over the course of that tour... Yours, Jon ObCD: Neu! - _Neu!_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Fri Apr 25 12:02:47 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:02:47 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Studio album Message-ID: > It couldn't be `Eedeakaran' anyway, because I scam this spelling > from the sleeve of _In Your Area_ where the words of that poem appear > under that title, and if you listen Ron's intoning it in the background of > `Prairie' on that very album, so that has in fact been released. And to be > utterly fair to Ron, there at least it contains no reference to genetic > engineerin, though I'm not convinced it didn't develop some as Ron tried > to turn it into a fear piece to shout at the audience over the course of > that tour... Yours, > Jon The opnly other new Ron piece from around that time that springs to my mind was 'Mushroom Head' (my title) that was played at the Whirlwind gig in Bath. From js3619 at ACMENET.NET Fri Apr 25 12:03:18 2003 From: js3619 at ACMENET.NET (Bolts of Ungodly Vision) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:03:18 -0400 Subject: BOC/OFF: MC5:A true testimonial Message-ID: It's made its way to the city! Whoever an go, must go to check out the first bonafide documentary on the mighty sons of Detroit. > 2nd TRIBECA FILM FESTIVAL >May 3 - 11, 2003 New York, NY >http://www.tribecafilmfestival.org >Wednesday, May 7, 10:45 PM, UA Five Theatre >Friday, May 9, 3:45 PM, UA Eleven Theatre > And, of course, if you go, drop a line to the list to give a sense of whether it does kick out the jams or if it needs to get off the stage. J From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Apr 25 15:09:18 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin J Allen) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:09:18 +0100 Subject: ++++ HW: Studio album Message-ID: Jon Jarrett wrote: > And absence of Simon's violin as he plays it now > is just a terrible thing whatever else his contribution might or might not > be. I hope whatever is ailing him or otherwise preventing him showing up > to things is soon over. On this front, things are looking up! Please note that this electronic mail system is not intended to form any legal contract or binding agreement. This is for information purposes only. Please also note that this message should not be interpreted as any form of valid information. You use the information contained in this message at your own risk. From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Fri Apr 25 16:41:20 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:41:20 +0100 Subject: BRAIN: Beach Party updates! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20030422124308.006974a4@acmenet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Bolts of Ungodly Vision wrote: > Check out when you, too, can have fun fun fun > in the sun sun sun (or a bar, take your pick.) > at cellsum.com! > more tourdates! Or, in some parts of the world, rather fewer :-( Oh well. At the same time as a BOC tour was never going to be ideal and it can hardly be said there's no consolation. Here's hoping for something later in the year. Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Fri Apr 25 16:08:32 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:08:32 +0100 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics In-Reply-To: <200304110150330240.0240565F@mail.vr.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 2003, kgerwers wrote: > hi everybody - > another call for help from any of you native speakers/listeners out there... > I am actually working on a flash-version of DEATH TRAP - but > some words might be just not quite right - at least when I compare > the lyrics I have in front of me with the actual studio-recording. > could some friendly soul out there clear this up? I'll give my take on it, because I'm not sure I exactly agreed with anyone else's yet :-) > I am pasting in the lyrics I got - but some lines definitely differ from the > actual recordings...the odd word here and there might just be daftly wrong... > thanks for help, as always.... > knut > > here are the lyrics: > > In the back of my neck I can feel a strange sensation > Feels like I'm heading for the crisis of all creation > Only those with death wish understand my situation > Feels like Jesus Christ heading for the Stations `Feel' there not `Feels', I think; also the `... of the Cross' that Doug notes from the live version is here too, hung over to the beginning of the next line. > In my death trap, death trap > Running in my death trap, death trap > Chicken running in my death trap, death trap Last line of the refrain is sung twice. > Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion As Joe Loehr said, this is `Cruising for the crossroads... '... > Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction Could this be `Quatermass distinction'? I could hear either, he says it so fast. > While I hold a wheel of fate, smell of burning friction ... and I also think as does Joe that this is `One hand on the wheel of fate... ' > I feel like a hero heading for extinction > > DEATH TRAP He definitely tacks "In my..." onto the beginning of this refrain, which is as you have it above with the doubled last line again. You had the verse again here, but it doesn't happen yet, so I've clipped it and moved it to where it does. [first guitar break] > It's the smell of burning plastic (??? is it "smell"????) I think this is "It's a shell of steel and plastic". > Monkey on elastic, going up and down One repeat of this line, with `up and down' repeated at the end. > Crank shaft cracking up > Oil pressure going down > Brake drums blowing out > Tires on fire now Calvert would have spelt it `tyres' :-) > Differential (or: Detrimental??) seize up, oil blast cam shaft I think that is `differential', but I think the second phrase is `unbalanced camshaft'. Not sure about that though; I can hear `oil blast' too. > Worn out pistons rings, brake fade, brake fade `Piston' with no `s' there I think. > hydraulic leak out, radiator overheat > Monkey on elastic, going up and down Repeated once. > Smell of burning plastic, This time it's definitely `Shell of steel plastic', followed by, "Ah turn it round"; > It's the smell of burning plastic, And here: "Shell of steel and plastic" [second guitar break] > > In the back of my neck I can feel a strange sensation > Feels like I'm heading for the crisis of all creation This time there is no `all' there. > Only those with death wish understand my situation > Feels like Jesus Christ heading for the Stations Same as above: `Feel' not `Feels' and the "... of the Cross!' coming in just before the next line. > > Heading for the crossroads of fiery crucifixion > Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction > While I hold a wheel of fate, smell of burning friction As above, I think `One hand on the wheel of fate' > I feel like a hero heading for extinction > In my death trap, death trap > Running in my death trap, death trap > Chicken running in my death trap, death trap Here it gets confusing. As I hear it Calvert is now only singing `Chicken run', while the backing continues with `death trap, death trap'. I don't think the linking `-ning in my' is there any more. Repeat I think three times. > death trap, death trap .... Repeat lots of times, you can count 'em :-) > DEATH-WISH > I feel oddly sure I've disarranged the verse and refrains myself now but that looks OK to me. Yours, Jon ObCassette: Hawkwind - _P. X. R. 5_ (well there's a thing) -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From hw at CY-B.ORG Fri Apr 25 17:27:15 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:27:15 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: Why not just visit Mission Control? http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/lyr/dt.htm From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Fri Apr 25 18:18:00 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:18:00 +0100 Subject: BRAIN: Touring info that's phat! In-Reply-To: <3E9BF8D9.74AADF7D@mitre.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, John A. Swartz wrote: > Geez, I don't know about this promoter. You'd think most BOC fans would > be very excited to see both BOC and tBS within a short span of time, and > would be more than willing to pay the extra price to also see a tBS > show. Is money that tight over there that fans of both bands wouldn't > come out to see both? What if these fans happen to like OTHER bands and > are already planning on seeing them in the same timeframe? Well, as I mentioned a while ago, this season is being the absolute top of the list for great bands touring (Hawkwind, University of Errors, BOC, Tony Hill, and also Clutch with the Spiritual Beggars already gone) but I was hoping to see tBS somehow and work out how to afford it all later :-) I guess the problem is not so much convincing the promoter that we'd pay, as him convincing the venues that the whole venture would float. Most of them will only be seeing The Brain Surgeons' `draw' in terms of the BOC connection, and also know that BOC are on tour, and thus reckon a tBS show now to be a bad risk for them. And you've got to face facts; Bouchard Dunaway Smith only drew a hundred or so in London even, and as Si says the publicity for that was not bad, well beyond what the venues themselves would ever put into it. I doubt The Brain Surgeons would pull in much more and that sort of numbers doesn't really justify a transatlantic crossing. There will be some people who can't do both and that margin of extra people may make the difference for a later show or two. That's my hope anyhow. Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From hw at CY-B.ORG Fri Apr 25 18:41:30 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:41:30 -0400 Subject: HW: Dave Brock Radio Interview Message-ID: + ++ + + ++ STAR WARRIORS + ++ + NEW INFO: Dave Brock will be the featured guest in an an hour long interview on LBC Radio on Saturday 3rd May at 11.30am on the Matthew Wright Show. LBC is on 97.3 FM in the London area. You can listen online by clicking on the logo on our updates page on Mission Control: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/up_.htm www.hawkwind.com + ++ ++ + MESSAGE ENDS + + + ++ + From youless at LVCM.COM Fri Apr 25 19:01:00 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:01:00 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: I'm sure I'm in a minority here (or are these the lyrics as I would subliminally prefer them to be?) but I hear the following for a couple of lines: -------------------------------------------------------- >> Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction > > Could this be `Quatermass distinction'? I could hear either, he >says it so fast. "Lighting up the night sky with pitiless distinction" -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- >> It's the smell of burning plastic, > > And here: "Shell of steel and plastic" > > [second guitar break] "Shattered steel and plastic" -------------------------------------------------------- Steve From chrisr at TIAC.NET Fri Apr 25 20:01:22 2003 From: chrisr at TIAC.NET (Chris Raymond) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:01:22 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics In-Reply-To: <200304252301.TAA13801@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: I always thought it was "bitter indistinction" Chris -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Steve Youles Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 7:01 PM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics I'm sure I'm in a minority here (or are these the lyrics as I would subliminally prefer them to be?) but I hear the following for a couple of lines: -------------------------------------------------------- >> Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction > > Could this be `Quatermass distinction'? I could hear either, he >says it so fast. "Lighting up the night sky with pitiless distinction" -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- >> It's the smell of burning plastic, > > And here: "Shell of steel and plastic" > > [second guitar break] "Shattered steel and plastic" -------------------------------------------------------- Steve From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 26 03:36:04 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:36:04 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:27:15 -0400, Rik Rx wrote: >Why not just visit Mission Control? > >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/lyr/dt.htm See: http://listserv.spc.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0304B&L=BOC- L&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1&P=7042 Hence the subsequent attempts to work out what Bob really is singing. From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Sat Apr 26 06:10:03 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:10:03 +0200 Subject: Hawkfest hotels Message-ID: hello, does anyone knows about hotels & prices nearby the hawkfest? greetings filip From nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET Sat Apr 26 06:23:57 2003 From: nick.lee2 at VIRGIN.NET (Nick Lee) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:23:57 +0100 Subject: Hawkfest hotels Message-ID: I used to work quite frequently in the preston/Garstang/Broughton area. There are a number of hotels & guest houses of varying price & quality. The place we stayed the most often was Guy's, on the A6 near Garstang, pretty cheap and nice, but I'm told it does get very busy at weekends in the summer. Can't remember the names or details of any others but I'll try and find out from someone who still works at my old company. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Filip Vanhuyse" To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:10 AM Subject: Hawkfest hotels hello, does anyone knows about hotels & prices nearby the hawkfest? greetings filip From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 26 09:53:15 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:53:15 +0100 Subject: OFF: PT and tribute bands (was: Totally random wandering thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Henderson Keith wrote: > Porcupine Tree: tiny club in Zurich (should have swapped > halls with Guru Guru...more people wedged into 1/5th the > space)...sold out and sweaty. New rhythm guitarist/backing > vocalist makes a huge difference in the overall sound. > Very loud, nearly metallic show...and really quite amazing. I hadn't gathered there was another guitarist on board, that does make for an interesting show. I passed up the chance to see them last time they came near me, though I was very impressed with _In Absentia_; I didn't expect to get what I used to get from PT shows from the new incarnation somehow. Now I'm thinking I should give them another try. It will be a different band though. No longer head music really. > They have always been *much* heavier in concert than on > disc, but this show indicates that they're trying to ramp > up to an eventual planned tour with Opeth in America (who > Steve Wilson produces...deathish-metal aus Norway?). And > although I really disliked both Dimbulb Sun and Recordings, > I think In Absentia (on Lava/Atlantic Records) is really > a very good album and things like 'Creator had a mastertape' > were just stunning. And "Tinto Brass" likewise. They did > "Darkmatter" as one encore, and even it was rather heavy > as well. Richard Barbieri obviously has diminished in > importance to the bulk of the performance, but there still > remain quiet bits where he at least should still continue > to show up. Very surprising that this band has seemingly > bucked an oh-so-obvious sell-out trend, but I always > retained some faith that SW was still and will always be > an 'artist' first, even if he becomes very wealthy in time > (still some doubt about that). I still don't care for his > "artificial discography-padding" (in the guise of offering > special 'collectors' items' (Hint: if it *says* "Collector's > Item" on the package, it's not.) that all the fans would > just *love* to have, just for that one extra special out- > take track of the band tuning their instruments. I too thought _In Absentia_ showed heavy metal influences (though not as heavy an influence as Opeth's new PT-style chord sequences that I couldn't help noticing arriving between their early material and the current more Wilsonian oeuvre... ). I'm not sure it's an avoidance of sell-out exactly, but it's certainly an avoidance of the *previous* sell-out trend which well, wasn't selling very well. This stuff, as the first person I played it at said, is targeted straight for MTV2 and is doing well enough there. But knowing that I couldn't really feel that this had hurt the songwriting or the skill involved in both arrangement and actual playing at all. I thought roughly the same of _Lightbulb Sun_ once I settled to an opinion on it, it's clearly targeted to a market but it's still very well done. Steven Wilson can write good stuff in several genres it seems. Although he does hawk every last drop out of it. I didn't buy _In Absentia_ when it was frst available as an import because of the amount of hype I was getting from the Freak Emporium about buying it before the European release. Aha, I thought, and waited till the inevitable European bonus edition finally emerged as it eventually did. _In Absentia_ has some very good stuff on it, but I'm not sure I want to see them do so much stuff that's only recent. There is, with the possible exception of `Creator' and `Heart Attack in a Lay-By', nothing *great* on there like `Voyage 34' or `Radioactive Toy' and for this reason I wish he'd get an IEM line-up gigging which would allow me to stop hoping for the wrong thing from what PT now is, which is the cash cow that allows him to do other stuff in the same way that No Man was meant to be and that working with Fish and now Opeth has become. I'm glad to see him doing so well though because he really has worked for it. > Coming up in the neighborhood is...Fish, Y&T, Jethro Tull > (Montreaux Jazz), Burg Herzberg (Nektar, Man, etc.) and/or > Kloster Cornberg (Damo, PTree, others), and maybe Wurzburg > for either Magma or Anekdoten/Paathos. Oh yeah, and I'm > going to be in the London area on May 3rd-4th for absolutely > no reason whatsoever (given that WotW was cancelled), so > I thought maybe I'd go to Dover to see this band called > "Tea for the Wicked" that might be interesting. Anybody > know them? If I'm thinking of the right band, I gather they're kind of like a more arty Led Zeppelin, but I've never heard any. I don't think I can make it to London that weekend either (hey, come to Cambridge instead, not that there's anything rock on here either). > Other shows in the UK that weekend seem to be by tribute > bands...what the hell is the deal with tribute bands? OK, > I'm guilty of seeing-in-the-past/having-interest-in-seeing > tribute bands of *Hawkwind* (and indeed their recordings... > see HWCA thread above), but out of all the bands I like, > I can't think of *any* other target-of-tributization-band > I would care to hear being 'recreated' by a bunch of > pretenders... > Anyway, what's the point of all this? I thought when this > all started a decade ago or so (ignoring for the moment > the existence of Beatlemania-type offerings in the deeper > past)...I mean, the *rampant* tributization...it would just > be a 'fad' or 'phase' like that ridiculous 'unplugged' > nonsense, but here it is 2003, and it's still here! There > are two Pink Floyd tribute bands touring/playing in the UK > at the same time in early May! (Off the Wall and Think > Floyd if you *must* know.) WHY? I love Floyd, but even > if these groups *could* play the songs better in some way > than the group (of senior citizens) itself, it's still just > not right. With music (IMHO), the original artist playing > their own tune at even just 50% the 'ability' (assuming > some loss of virtuosity based on mere age) of that possibly > by a younger "mimic" is still far and away more preferable > in my mind. Well, when I say it's not 'right,' I don't > mean that they 'can't' or 'shouldn't' do it, just that I > would hope that most people wouldn't give a sh*t about it > unless that was *their* favorite of all time...and so in > that case the whole fad should have been gone a long time > ago. I can see both sides of this one. Certainly one or two of the Pink Floyd tribute bands (Pink Fraud especially) are reputed to be *really* good at it. And the argument is that you'll never see Floyd gigging and even if they do it won't be like that, the classic line-up. And Nik has a similar argument going with Space Ritual.net of course, that the current HW isn't like the HW that was so he can do that (not that I think he can actually but anyway). Likewise Hendrix and so on (though you could go see Outskirts of Infinity if you could ever find out when they were playing). When you get to bands that are gigging, especially Thin Lizzy for example, the argument is that they won't come to your town or the pub just down the road, and then you have to ask, well, how much effort should people be prepared to make? I myself have no objection to bands like this encouraging people to get off their backsides and go see some live music, and if that's what they do then good. They may even allow a venue to keep going with other unknown acts because of having a more bankable income on the tribute bands. The Standard in Walthamstow seems to work like this. I've seen some great gigs there but their main fodder is almost always tribute bands unless something big that they can connect to a big enough name, like the various ex-Hawk combos playing there or the Bevis Frond gigs will draw enough people in by strength of the connection to compete. And from the other side, though I would have thought it was really painful being rated on how closely you managed to copy that solo that's on the album. I mean, you can't be allowed to vary it at *all*, because people are going to hear what someone else did the way someone else did it, no? Worse than playing to a backing tape I'd have thought... But I've had it argued to me that some people will never *be* in the new exciting band that plays original stuff, because there are more people out there who can play decently than can write songs, and also the same interest in playing stuff you can get gigs with must be there. Where it all goes wrong of course is that the market gets in and says, "you can make more money from tribute bands than you can from struggling real bands" and thus the tribute band gets the gig over the real talent and originality, and the more people adopt this safe thinking the fewer slots there are for new bands trying to break into the circuit. That said, there are very few bands I've been in contact with who really *can't* get gigs, though there's an awful lot who are too disorganised to sort it *out*. And there's some comfort here in that more and more of the places that do these gigs also seem to be doing nights for unsigned bands or local bands so there is clearly a market of people who want to hear stuff that's actually new. But the space in the middle, between unsigned youth and grizzly copy-cats, where there is skill, new material and a paying public but not enough of one to fill a pub, that isn't getting the space it needs. I guess people need to know a band either as a known quantity or else one that no-one knows? Who can say. But yes, I don't go to tribute shows myself. Except The Hamsters who tread the edge of my distaste for it very nicely. Yours, Jon ObCD: Star Nation - _The Silver Age_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From motherfitzpatrick at BTOPENWORLD.COM Sat Apr 26 12:00:39 2003 From: motherfitzpatrick at BTOPENWORLD.COM (Samantha Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:00:39 +0100 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: I always thought it was "with a mass extinction" but then again . Sam........... > from: Steve Youles > date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:01:00 > to: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > subject: Re: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics > > I'm sure I'm in a minority here (or are these the lyrics as I would > subliminally prefer them to be?) but I hear the following for a couple of > lines: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> Lighting up the night sky with bitterness distinction > > > > Could this be `Quatermass distinction'? I could hear either, he > >says it so fast. > > "Lighting up the night sky with pitiless distinction" > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> It's the smell of burning plastic, > > > > And here: "Shell of steel and plastic" > > > > [second guitar break] > > "Shattered steel and plastic" > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Steve From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 26 12:32:27 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:32:27 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals In-Reply-To: <000901c30507$e8e3f7b0$dec66b51@yourpnqspyopyu> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Nick Lee wrote: > > There was that "Whirlwind" gig in December too, Chadwick, > > Richards, Tree, Wishart, Taylor. I really did think Brock was going to let > > the young things carry in without him after that. > > Plus Steve Bemand Really? Bother, missed that... Got it now though. > Alan's return was at Hawkestra (unless you count the Hawk conventio gig at > Stourbridge with Nik, Harvey, Judge Trev & Danny). Dumpy guested at the > Derby Rock & Blues in '99 (his birthday) and also at the re-located Rock & > Blues at Donington in '01, post-Hawkestra. Right, I think what happened there is I somehow got Hawkestra and Donington in the wrong order. Thanks for the help here... On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Captain Bl at ck wrote: > > Just to set the record (ahem!) straight... > > I played at St.Austell as did Nik - no Simon House there. Okay, got that now. > > Also Paul Hayles, allegedly, somewhere. > > Er...no Paul Hayles. And Mick Slattery did not play. Am now confused, but your word is better than mine on this, so Hayles removed. > > Canterbury 2001: Chadwick-Brock-House-Kniveton-Lloyd Langton-Davey and > > Arthur Brown, someone in the crowd told me they'd heard from Keith > > Kniveton that Messrs Tree and Richards had been expected but not turned > > up, and that was the last we saw of them... > > Actually that's not true. What I said privately to one fan (who shall remain > nameless) was that they wouldn't be there. There was never any suggestion > from me that they were expected. Either I remembered it worng or it was reported to me wrongly, then, sorry to have put words into your mouth. > > Hawkwind now down to a core five-piece, Chadwick-Brock-House-Lloyd > > Langton-Davey but tour that winter adds Kniveton at two gigs and Huggett > > at one of them and Christmas Party adds Danny Thompson, Tim Blake and > > Captain Rizz, night where it became obvious that Brock-Blake-Chadwick > > should immediately start releasing techno records > > Again not strictly true - I did 4 gigs on that tour. Right, I think that's just a wrong impressuion I got from the way the file is laid out, as it only intends to record line-up changes not individual gigs. Thanks for the corrections. > No malice intended from me, Jon. It didn't go unnoticed you were playing > Starfield during a previous mail... This does indeed happen every now and then. Come to that, where's *your* new album eh? :-) If anyone's interested, by the way, have done some digging on those things I listed as forthcoming where I can: the version of `Nothing Else Matters' for a Metallica tribute album by Jon Oliva, Bob Balch, Lemmy and Greg Bissonnette is now out, has been since 2000 indeed and the actual disc is called _Metallic Attack: a tribute to Metallica_. For people that like to play the comnections game it's manna from heaven, as many of the musicians work on several tracks with different people, so you can trace tortuous links through the individual tracks and other albums by the same people from Motorhead to, for example, Slayer, Metal Church, Frank Zappa, Anthrax, Danzing, Van Halen, Testament and Blue Oyster Cult (because Eric sings on one song with Al Pitrelli also appearing on keyboards)... As for the others, the track I had listed as `Shout It Out Loud' by Lemmy, Vivian Campbell and Eric Singer transpires to be a cover of the KISS song, and will be appearing on the _Ash Wednesday OST_ later this year; and Luther Grosvenor's new album with Huw on it seems to have dropped off the map, as indeed has the man's own website (Luther's not Huw's) but I learn that you can now get the two Widowmaker albums with Huw on in a 2CD package called _Straight Faced Fighters_ should you really want to... No news on the Dark Sun, DanMingo or Little Wing efforts. Yours, Jon ObCD: Star One - _Space Metal_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM Sat Apr 26 15:55:48 2003 From: JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM (Joe Loehr) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:55:48 EDT Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: In a message dated 4/26/2003 2:40:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time, nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:27:15 -0400, Rik Rx wrote: > > >Why not just visit Mission Control? > > > >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/lyr/dt.htm > > See: > > http://listserv.spc.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0304B&L=BOC- > L&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1&P=7042 > > Hence the subsequent attempts to work out what Bob really is singing. > Mission Control is a good place to start! As to what Bob (or Dave/Nik/Lemmy/) were really singing . . . doesn't that depend on which version of a particular song one happens to be listening to? Joe From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Sat Apr 26 16:12:52 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:12:52 +0100 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals - a few corrections In-Reply-To: <196Q6w-1MGwHwC@fwd09.sul.t-online.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Bernhard Pospiech wrote: > Maybe this (late) info gives you a little help > > > Here are the lineups for the last 4 years > If you need some other years please let me know Hi Bernhard, thanks very much for this, which sews up the few gaps. I find myself in the unlikely position of being able to offer you a correction or two though, not with the Hawkwind line-ups but the Nikwind ones. I'm not sure which Nik bands you're including and which you aren't (is it just those only Hawkwind ex-members played in?) but: > TOWN: HALL: DATE: DAY: LINE-UP: > Ystalyfera Festival 21.07.2000 Fri TU/LL/OL/CB/DI This was the Nik Turner's Reunion Band gig, yes? There was Hawkwind All Stars (as it was billed) later in the year, which for your table would be: Stourbridge 30.09.2000 Sat TU/DA/BA/TH [+Judge Trev] > London Nikestra 21.10.2001 Sun TU/TR/RI/SL/OL/CB/DI And you missed a few participants there. I know because I was there :-) I don't know the right acronyms for your system here, but also playing were: Martin Griffin, Steve Swindells, Del Dettmar, Dave Anderson and Adrian Shaw, and Dik Mik was *not* there. Though Jon Moss and Commander Jim Hawkman were. It was billed as Hawkestra. I have it noted that Nik performed soon afterwards just as Nik Turner with Harvey Bainbridge also in the band but I don't know who the rest of the band were or when they played. Then at the beginning of 2002 there were or was an or several XHawkwind gig or gigs with a line-up of Nik, Thomas Crimble, Mick Slattery, Del Dettmar, Terry Ollis and Ron Tree. Also Space Ritual.net shows with Turner, Crimble, Slattery, Ollis and others at the end of 2002 and the second Greasy Truckers Party which added Dave Anderson, Adrian Shaw, Ron Tree and Jerry Richards, followed in December with shows with a line-up of Turner, Crimble, Slattery, Ollis, Anderson, Dettmar and others, but I don't imagine you care about these. Just not sure where you stop listing Nik gigs in the scheme of things. If you want I can try and attach dates and places to these? Yours, Jon ObCD: Nebula - _Dos EPs_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Apr 26 17:08:30 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:08:30 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:55:48 EDT, Joe Loehr wrote: > >As to what Bob (or Dave/Nik/Lemmy/) were really singing . . . doesn't that >depend on which version of a particular song one happens to be listening to? Indeed. As far as "Death Trap" goes, I've always thought of the PXR5 version as the archetype, and all others as variants or even imitations. I'm not sure there's any logical reason for thinking like that, it's probably just because the PXR5 version is the one I heard first (and still the one I like best)- a very subjective thing, in other words. Nick From lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET Sun Apr 27 07:20:10 2003 From: lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET (Stephe Lindas) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 07:20:10 -0400 Subject: HW: Sabbaticals - a few corrections Message-ID: Hi Jon, If you can do a complete gig listing I'd be interested in this. After the 21/10/2001 date you say Nik and Harvey. Are you refering to the Strange Daze tour in the USA? I could probably get the info for the lineup and dates. Let me know. Cheers Stephe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Jarrett" To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 4:12 PM Subject: Re: HW: Sabbaticals - a few corrections > On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Bernhard Pospiech wrote: > > > Maybe this (late) info gives you a little help > > > > > > Here are the lineups for the last 4 years > > If you need some other years please let me know > > Hi Bernhard, thanks very much for this, which sews up the few > gaps. I find myself in the unlikely position of being able to offer you a > correction or two though, not with the Hawkwind line-ups but the Nikwind > ones. I'm not sure which Nik bands you're including and which you aren't > (is it just those only Hawkwind ex-members played in?) but: > > > TOWN: HALL: DATE: DAY: LINE-UP: > > Ystalyfera Festival 21.07.2000 Fri TU/LL/OL/CB/DI > > This was the Nik Turner's Reunion Band gig, yes? There was > Hawkwind All Stars (as it was billed) later in the year, which for your > table would be: > > Stourbridge 30.09.2000 Sat TU/DA/BA/TH [+Judge Trev] > > > London Nikestra 21.10.2001 Sun TU/TR/RI/SL/OL/CB/DI > > And you missed a few participants there. I know because I was > there :-) I don't know the right acronyms for your system here, but also > playing were: Martin Griffin, Steve Swindells, Del Dettmar, Dave Anderson > and Adrian Shaw, and Dik Mik was *not* there. Though Jon Moss and > Commander Jim Hawkman were. It was billed as Hawkestra. > > I have it noted that Nik performed soon afterwards just as Nik > Turner with Harvey Bainbridge also in the band but I don't know who the > rest of the band were or when they played. > > Then at the beginning of 2002 there were or was an or several > XHawkwind gig or gigs with a line-up of Nik, Thomas Crimble, Mick > Slattery, Del Dettmar, Terry Ollis and Ron Tree. > > Also Space Ritual.net shows with Turner, Crimble, Slattery, Ollis > and others at the end of 2002 and the second Greasy Truckers Party which > added Dave Anderson, Adrian Shaw, Ron Tree and Jerry Richards, followed in > December with shows with a line-up of Turner, Crimble, Slattery, Ollis, > Anderson, Dettmar and others, but I don't imagine you care about > these. Just not sure where you stop listing Nik gigs in the scheme of > things. If you want I can try and attach dates and places to these? Yours, > > Jon > > ObCD: Nebula - _Dos EPs_ > -- > "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine > law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient > to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the > delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM Sun Apr 27 09:27:42 2003 From: JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM (Joe Loehr) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:27:42 EDT Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: In a message dated 4/26/2003 4:13:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time, nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Indeed. As far as "Death Trap" goes, I've always thought of the PXR5 > version as the archetype, and all others as variants or even imitations. > Could it also be a studio version vs. live version thing? In many cases, the studio version is the first version done, and conditions are more controlled than in concert. And at a concert, the band might be more experimental, using different arrangements or lyrics. Joe From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Apr 27 09:16:48 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55018) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:16:48 +0100 Subject: Hawkwind on LBC [Radio] Message-ID: Could anyone supply the date and time of this interview on LBC 97,3 FM? I dont think it's on Mission Control yet. Cheers Ben From jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM Sun Apr 27 09:35:29 2003 From: jkranitz at AURAL-INNOVATIONS.COM (Jerry Kranitz) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:35:29 -0400 Subject: OFF: Aural Innovations April 2003 issue online NOW!!! Message-ID: http://Aural-Innovations.com The April 2003 issue (#23) of Aural Innovations: The Global Source For SpaceRock Exploration is now online. Aural Innovations covers Space Rock, Psychedelia, Electronic music, plus the more eclectic forms of Jazz and Progressive rock. See the index of this issue's contents below. NOTE TO BANDS: I spent the better part of the last month glued to the television watching war news so there's a lot of music I had planned to review for this issue that didn't get covered. I think you'll see that it's still a typically huge issue. So bear with me folks and I'll try to get you all covered on the radio shows in the time between now and next issue. I've also got some great label themed shows coming up in the next couple months. Now read on..... The April 2003 issue of Aural Innovations includes: Farflung The Shalabi Effect Floorian WE The S.P.A.C.E.R.O.C.K.E.R.'S Guide To Julian Cope Three days on the Road with WE and EL CACO Tales Of The ACTION MAN: Mot?rhead, My Sweet Not Of This Earth: A Tribute To Sci-Fi Movies (Black Widow label box set review) Stephen Palmer's FLOWERCRASH (book review) Live show coverage Recent Releases from Strange Attractors Audio House Recent Releases from Music Fellowship Recent Releases from Electroshock Records Releases from Elsie & Jack Releases from Ant Lunch Musick Releases from Camera Obscura Recent Releases from Silber Media Releases from Public Eyesore Recent Releases from Musea Records Recent Releases from Lonely Whistle Music Releases from Zzaj Productions Releases from Zero 1 Media Recent Releases from Hi-Note Music And a loads and loads of reviews!!! You can go directly to the new issue at: http://aural-innovations.com/issues/issue23/issue23.html Don't forget to check out Aural Innovations Radio for the best sounds on the planet and the Aural Innovations CD mail order catalog for some of the best space rock and psychedelia that you've never heard. All the above can be found by setting your vessel's controls for http://Aural-Innovations.com From vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Apr 27 10:02:24 2003 From: vulcanfoundry at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Ben F. 55018) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:02:24 +0100 Subject: [Hawkwind] Hawkwind on LBC [Radio] Message-ID: I got the timings, sorry for the spam. Ballymoss 55018 wrote: >Could anyone supply the date and time of this interview on LBC 97,3 FM? > >I dont think it's on Mission Control yet. > >Cheers > >Ben > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> >Get A Free Psychic Reading! >Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. >http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/AG3JAA/Gx3olB/TM >---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >PLEASE NOTE: Watch this space! >

>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >Hawkwind-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > From roger.wynne-jones at VIRGIN.NET Sun Apr 27 11:43:39 2003 From: roger.wynne-jones at VIRGIN.NET (Roger) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:43:39 +0100 Subject: HW: Derby Rock'n'Blues Message-ID: Anyone shed any light on something I heard at the w/e that Hawkwind will be headlining Derby Rock and Blues this year (20th anniversary) but only if they fly Lemmy over to play with them? No bands announced on their website http://www.rockandblues.uk.com/ but I did notice a piccy of lemmy at the bottom of the page, from three years ago I think Roger From hw at CY-B.ORG Sun Apr 27 17:55:33 2003 From: hw at CY-B.ORG (Rik Rx) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:55:33 -0400 Subject: HW: Brock Radio Interview Update Message-ID: ++ + ++ STAR WARRIORS + + Dave Brock will be the featured guest in an an hour long interview on LBC Radio on Saturday 3rd May at 11.30am on the Matthew Wright Show. LBC is on 97.3 FM in the London area, however you can also listen online by clicking on the logo on Mission Control Updates: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hwind/up_.htm www.hawkwind.com ++ ++ MESSAGE ENDS + ++ + From erics at TELEPRES.COM Sun Apr 27 18:24:25 2003 From: erics at TELEPRES.COM (Eric Siegerman) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:24:25 -0400 Subject: HW: Brock Radio Interview Update In-Reply-To: <200304272155.RAA20360@listserv.spc.edu>; from hw@CY-B.ORG on Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 05:55:33PM -0400 Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 05:55:33PM -0400, Rik Rx wrote: > ++ + ++ STAR WARRIORS + + > > Dave Brock will be the featured guest in an an hour long interview on > LBC Radio on Saturday 3rd May at 11.30am BST, I presume (i.e. UTC + 1hr)? -- | | /\ |-_|/ > Eric Siegerman, Toronto, Ont. erics at telepres.com | | / My Wine works. However it crashes about half the time on startup. Apparently their simulation of windoze API is getting too accurate. :) - Kyle Sallee From micci at SCI.FI Mon Apr 28 06:31:17 2003 From: micci at SCI.FI (Miikka Wagner) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:31:17 +0300 Subject: HW: space ritual font type Message-ID: Hi! Which font type is original Space Ritual album? I need it! Captain Wagner Official Finnish Hawkwind Association/ FinnWind ry PL67, 00531, Helsinki finn.wind at sci.fi http://www.saunalahti.fi/freak5 ************************************** You know who you are ************************************** From EJobson at THRUPOINT.NET Mon Apr 28 06:43:59 2003 From: EJobson at THRUPOINT.NET (Jobson, Eddie) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:43:59 +0100 Subject: Email address change Message-ID: Hi, I am changing employer and would like to change my contact email address as part of this list. Can someone contact me off line to arrange? Many thanks, Eddie. From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 28 15:40:57 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:40:57 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:27:42 EDT, Joe Loehr wrote: >Could it also be a studio version vs. live version thing? > >In many cases, the studio version is the first version done, and conditions >are more controlled than in concert. I'm sure that does have something to do with it, for many songs the studio version feels like the template on which everything else is based, even when live versions may be superior. Mind you 'Death Trap' has actually had 2 studio incarnations... but to me the Alien 4 one is almost akin to a cover version. The band sound quite good on that but Ron's vocals sound oddly thin, and the unhinged energy of the original is lacking IMHO. Nick From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Apr 28 20:25:16 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:25:16 -0400 Subject: OFF: MC5:A true testimonial Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:03:18 -0400, Bolts of Ungodly Vision wrote: >It's made its way to the city! Whoever an go, must go to check out the >first bonafide documentary on the mighty sons of Detroit. > > >> 2nd TRIBECA FILM FESTIVAL >>May 3 - 11, 2003 New York, NY >>http://www.tribecafilmfestival.org >>Wednesday, May 7, 10:45 PM, UA Five Theatre >>Friday, May 9, 3:45 PM, UA Eleven Theatre >> > >And, of course, if you go, drop a line to the list to give a sense of >whether it does kick out the jams or if it needs to get off the stage. In the meantime, check out: http://mc5japan.jp/ Clicking on the "MC5 100 Club" button takes you to an account of the recent "MC3" performance, in aid of Levi's I'm sorry to say, and while I can't read Japanese (any translation would be hugely appreciated) it would appear that Lemmy was among the guest performers- a number of pics of him doing his thang onstage. There's much else of interest on this site, with English translations of at least some pages. I found the site via the recommendation at Larry Wallis' site www.pinkfairies.co.uk, which reminds me that I *still* haven't bought Larry's "Death in the Guitafternoon" album, nor have I seen any mention of it here- someone must have it surely? Nick From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Tue Apr 29 00:44:28 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:44:28 -0300 Subject: BRAIN,HW,BOC: 2 Autumn Beach Parties with The Brain Surgeons & The OEBs Message-ID: After you catch them this summer, see them again this fall!!! Friday October 17th, The Brain Surgeons will leave Atlantic City on flame with Rock-n-Roll!! Celebrate their new 'Beach Party' album at the beach! It will be a great night, so mark your calendars now! Over 21 only The One Eyed Bishops to support The Erin Hotel is attached and can be booked ahead of time for hard core fans who want a place to stay without driving! Next night: see a special intimate show (120 occupancy) at The Zen House of Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey. All ages show, proof of id required to bring your own alcohol ( beer & wine only). Age restriction will be enforced The One Eyed Bishops to support For complete info visit the Brain Surgeons/ Cellsum Records website at: www.cellsum.com For information on The One Eyed Bishops visit: http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com See You in Roctober!! From gerald.whitworth at PARTHUSCEVA.COM Tue Apr 29 04:14:38 2003 From: gerald.whitworth at PARTHUSCEVA.COM (Gerald Whitworth) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:14:38 +0100 Subject: May Concerts Message-ID: Is there anyone in the Northampton area might be planning to go to the Hawkwind Concert in Birmingham on May 27th, or the SpaceRitual Concert at Stourbridge on May 17th, who might be interested in sharing transport arrangements and costs. Please email me off list From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 29 04:49:36 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:49:36 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues In-Reply-To: <200304230631.CAA26149@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Doug Pearson wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:11:40 +0100, Jon Jarrett > wrote: > > I think I'd agree overall, but I think a danger with _Warrior_ is > >that in order to give it that power the bottom end might be boosted too > >much. > > Yeah, the reason I used the word "power" was because there's a LOT going on > with that album (as someone else mentioned), and I had a tough time finding > a more specific description. > > >I have the Griffin CD and it seems to me that the bottom end is > >very, not muddy, but indefinite in a liquid way, I want to say > >swampy. Like it was recorded in less definition than the rest of the > >tracks. That may be because of the bass-rolling you were talking about > >lower down the thread perhaps. Either way I don't think Lemmy really > >shines on this album but I think just bringing it up, if the CD accurately > >reflects the state of the master, is not going to cure that. > > I think that's because Lemmy plays Gibson Thunderbird instead of a > Rickenbacker bass on this album (even though his Ric had a T-bird pickup in > it!). You do an excellent job of describing the tonal differences between > those two instruments. Well, thankyou for the credit but I wasn't concentrating on the bass guitar to that much effect :-) I was thinking of the whole soundscape. I mean, there are two drummers on this album, the only place I can really tell this without sitting between the speakers and squinting is the mid-section of `Magnu'. I'm sure it could be better than that. Lemmy also, but not just him by any means. > >The whole > >low-end would profit from more definition and I think I'd sacrifice some > >power for that. Of course it might be possible to have both which would be > >great, but I think of the four albums _Warrior_ is the only one which > >needs something obvious done to it to restore its intended state. > > That's the kind of thing that *can* be done in remastering (assuming a good > engineer with good ears in a good room with good equipment) This is my hope, then, that eventually it gets that sort of attention. > >ASAM > >could be made into a much better-sounding album with the multi-tracks as > >someone said, putting back the missing centre, but this would be more a > >remix, Zappa-style, than a remaster. Just my opinion, > > You may be right. I believe that ASAM *could* be salvaged in remastering > (probably with large amounts of analog eq and multiband compression, and, > of course, the aforementioned engineer etc.) Come to that I can't really find Powell on this album either. Is it just that he played round King so well I can't separate the kits, or is he just not given enough space in the studio miking, or (heresy) was he just not a very distinctive drummer? Yours, Jon ObCD: Daevid Allen - _N'Existe Pas!_ -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From ketil.svendsen at FISKAREN.NHST.NO Tue Apr 29 05:10:09 2003 From: ketil.svendsen at FISKAREN.NHST.NO (Ketil Svendsen) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:10:09 +0200 Subject: HW: space ritual font type Message-ID: 'far as i can remember, it's the VAG Rounded font. it's the sans-serif fat "round corners" one you're thinking of...? Best regards Ketil Svendsen Bergen, Norway > Subject: HW: space ritual font type > Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:31:17 +0300 > From: Miikka Wagner > > Hi! > > Which font type is original Space Ritual album? I need it! > > Captain Wagner > Official Finnish Hawkwind Association/ FinnWind ry > PL67, 00531, Helsinki > finn.wind at sci.fi > http://www.saunalahti.fi/freak5 > From Alogilvy at AOL.COM Tue Apr 29 10:39:50 2003 From: Alogilvy at AOL.COM (Alistair Ogilvy) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:39:50 EDT Subject: High rise Message-ID: I've just been enjoying relistening to some Charisma era stuff recently. A long story, but suffice to say many thanks to Steve for the amazing bass tabs ( By the way,check the Excellent www. starfarer.net/ site...If you havent checked it out, do so immediately !) said Bass tabs got me thinking how excellent the bass playing on High Rise is. So, the point of this little E Mail is that I started getting a hankering to compare different HW bass players attempts at this number. OK Ade is responsible for the original (PXR 5) version, and Ali 's definitely had a go at it, although from memory, when performed at Croydon, it was just basically Jerry and Ron playing (Some synth backing perhaps ?). Does anyone know of any other bassists handling High Rise live ? Has Harvey ever done it live ? are there any other versions available on tape ,CD/R , or whatever of other bassists attempting it? How many times has High Rise been done live? Certainly, I dont think anyone touched it seriously for some 20 yrs or so (From Ade leaving to Ali trying it unless I'm right about Harvey. I had somewhere in the back of my mind an idea that Harvey had played it live, but i'm not so sure. All the best Alistair From dplaw at IC24.NET Tue Apr 29 11:49:30 2003 From: dplaw at IC24.NET (Dave Law) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:49:30 -0400 Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST Message-ID: SEEING AS IT IS A NEAR CERTAINTY THAT I WON'T BE ABLE TO ATTEND HAWKFEST DUE TO INNCONSIDERATE FREINDS "TYING THE KNOT" THE SAME WEEKEND (BAH HUMBUG)COULD THOSE IN THE KNOW SAY AT THIS POINT WHETHER OR NOT THE BAND INTEND TO DO A WARM UP SHOW, A LA THE HASTING GIG LAST YEAR AND IF SO WHEN AND WHERE IT MIGHT BE!! THANKS DAVE From akomins at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Apr 29 11:59:15 2003 From: akomins at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Arin Komins) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:59:15 -0500 Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST In-Reply-To: <200304291549.LAA00134@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Dave Law wrote: :Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST : :SEEING AS IT IS A NEAR CERTAINTY THAT I WON'T BE ABLE TO ATTEND HAWKFEST :DUE TO INNCONSIDERATE FREINDS "TYING THE KNOT" THE SAME WEEKEND (BAH :HUMBUG)COULD THOSE IN THE KNOW SAY AT THIS POINT WHETHER OR NOT THE BAND :INTEND TO DO A WARM UP SHOW, A LA THE HASTING GIG LAST YEAR AND IF SO WHEN :AND WHERE IT MIGHT BE!! :THANKS :DAVE Um, Dave.... Could you please not shout? (basic netiquette: all caps is the equivalent of shouting, really should be avoided.) Also, you might want to use the appropriate subject line filter for your posts (in this case HW: ), as it makes life easier for those of us who are using the listserv's filtering system. Arin (not a moderator, but just asking ;-) ) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 29 12:27:23 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:27:23 +0100 Subject: HW: Classic Rock news Item In-Reply-To: <015801c30a4a$3439b280$0100a8c0@kermitz> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Si Halley wrote: > HAWKWIND HAVE ALMOST COMPLETED A new album at the home studio of their > guitarist Dave Brock. Though currently selfrecorded, it's highly possible > that the band may bring in outside ears to oversee their first record for > new label SPV Records. The as yet untitled album is loosely based on a > thesis written by Richard Morley, who has also contributed some lyrics. This is all amazing stuff. A label, for a start. And it would be SPV. Every day I seem to see another band finding a home there: Fu Manchu, Motorhead obviously, just lately Skid Row and Sepultura, it's amazing. But Lemmy's always complaining about lack of promotion it seems. Of course Lemmy does generally do this... Still. > "That was Arthur's suggestion," Brock says. "But we've also got Tim Blake on > there, possibly a few others. Musically there's an awful lot going on > Besides all the heavy rock and spacey stuff there's a full-on dance track > and lots of electronic parts. The biggest problem is making sure they flow > into one another. We've recorded 15 tracks, but there's some weeding out to > do." > Among the tracks up for inclusion are 'The Reality Of Poverty', 'Population > Overload', 'Techno Land', 'The Molecular Family', 'Asylum Island' and 'One > World Future'. The album isn't likely to be released until late September. This should be me told, shouldn't it? :-) 15 new tracks. But one of them's called `Population Overload' and I'm sure I own this already, indeed the _Distant Horizons_ track of the same name would fit the concept just fine. Still, it looks from the titles as if it could hardly be less topical, which is good: I suppose this is Morley and Brown but I like Dave getting "a bit political". I'll be glad of some decently acerbic social commentary. In a gesture of supreme faith therefore, I have actually put an untitled album in the forthcoming section of my master copy of the "In This Order" file :-) And, what's more, I've put it in above the Space Ritual.net one... Thanks for posting this Simon. Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK Tue Apr 29 12:42:50 2003 From: jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK (Jon Jarrett) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:42:50 +0100 Subject: John Harrison in the 70's In-Reply-To: <001401c30b1b$3564b200$5a50a944@amyandstephe> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Stephe Lindas wrote: > Can anyone confirm that John Harrison that played with Roy Buchanan in > the 70's is the same as the cat now playing in Spaceritual.net? And HW > in 1970? Cheers Stephe Um. Can confirm, I think that the guy who played for Roy Buchanan is the guy who played with Hawkwind in 1970. But what's your source for him playing with Space Ritual.net? Their website has nothing of this, and neither does , though they have apparently added someone called John Greves on analogue synth, which can only be a good thing. Be very interesting if so, as I thought Mr Harrison was only doing film music now if that. Any more information? Yours, Jon -- "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From denis at PTI-INC.DE Tue Apr 29 13:10:33 2003 From: denis at PTI-INC.DE (Denis Regenbrecht) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:10:33 +0200 Subject: High rise In-Reply-To: <19f.142e38ed.2bdfe8b6@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Alistair, > said Bass tabs got me thinking how excellent the bass playing on High > Rise > is. ACK to that! It's my favourite Hawkwind tune and the bass-playing there is one of the reasons I started to learn playing bass. BTW, it seems I can't find the bass-tab section of the starfarer site, only the guitar-chord one... > Does anyone know of any other bassists handling High Rise live ? Has > Harvey > ever done it live ? are there any other versions available on tape > ,CD/R , or > whatever of other bassists attempting it? I know (and have heard versions) from Ade Shaw (of course), Harvey Bainbridge (during the Hawklords years, there's a nice Hawklords-version with Harvey playing on the "Hawklords live" disc), Ron Tree (during the 1999 winter tour IIRC) and of course Alan Davey. > How many times has High Rise been > done live? Certainly, I dont think anyone touched it seriously for > some 20 > yrs or so (From Ade leaving to Ali trying it unless I'm right about > Harvey. I have no idea how many time it has been performed, but AFAIK it wasn't played live between the Hawklords-period and 1999, when it returned with Ron Tree as bassist. (c)IAO D+R -- "Nothing is true - everything is permissible" Hassan I Sabha From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Apr 29 13:43:40 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:43:40 -0400 Subject: HW: High rise Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:10:33 +0200, Denis Regenbrecht wrote: >Ron Tree (during the 1999 winter tour IIRC) Hmmm.... I saw HW at Croydon on that tour and I'm certain they didn't play High Rise. They *did* play it at Croydon in 2001, but Alan Davey was back in the fold by then, so he'd have been on bass. In fact they made a terrible mess of it, Ron shaking his head when the crowd cheered at the end anyway, and closing the gig by saying "Thanks a lot... sorry about the bit of crap in the middle!" Anyway, maybe Ron did play bass on this live, but I think it must have been on some other occasion. Maybe Bernhard can enlighten us? Nick From lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET Tue Apr 29 14:00:29 2003 From: lindas1 at ADELPHIA.NET (Stephe Lindas) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:00:29 -0400 Subject: John Harrison in the 70's Message-ID: Hi, I made a mistake on saying he was in SR.Net. Sorry about that. Cheers Stephe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Jarrett" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: Re: John Harrison in the 70's > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Stephe Lindas wrote: > > > Can anyone confirm that John Harrison that played with Roy Buchanan in > > the 70's is the same as the cat now playing in Spaceritual.net? And HW > > in 1970? Cheers Stephe > > Um. Can confirm, I think that the guy who played for Roy Buchanan > is the guy who played with Hawkwind in 1970. But what's your source for > him playing with Space Ritual.net? Their website has nothing of this, and > neither does , though they have apparently added > someone called John Greves on analogue synth, which can only be a good > thing. Be very interesting if so, as I thought Mr Harrison was only doing > film music now if that. Any more information? Yours, > Jon > > -- > "I recognise that I have transgressed many of the precepts of the divine > law, and that I am subjected by various vices and iniquities, disobedient > to the words of the divine mystery brought unto me and a worshipper of the > delights of this military age." Marquis Borrell of Barcelona, 955 A.D. > > (Jonathan Jarrett, Birkbeck College London) From starfield at SUPANET.COM Tue Apr 29 14:06:42 2003 From: starfield at SUPANET.COM (Captain Bl@ck) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:06:42 +0100 Subject: HW: EMI Reissues Message-ID: > Well, thankyou for the credit but I wasn't concentrating on the > bass guitar to that much effect :-) I was thinking of the whole > soundscape. I mean, there are two drummers on this album, the only place I > can really tell this without sitting between the speakers and squinting is > the mid-section of `Magnu'. I'm sure it could be better than that. Lemmy > also, but not just him by any means. > > > Come to that I can't really find Powell on this album either. Is > it just that he played round King so well I can't separate the kits, or is > he just not given enough space in the studio miking, or (heresy) was he > just not a very distinctive drummer? Yours, > Jon > Jon, What exactly are you using for a hi-fi system? Alan Powell was a suberb drummer - he played along side King on Assualt & Battery, Opa Loka, Magnu, Dying Seas, Kings Of Speed, Reefer Madness, Steppenwolf, Kerb Crawler, Aubergine.... Spiral Galaxy is all Alan Powell, as are City of Lagoons and Chronoglide Skyway. The guy's sense of timing was just awesome, man. Captain Bl at ck. From youless at LVCM.COM Tue Apr 29 14:46:15 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:46:15 -0400 Subject: High rise Message-ID: Er, yeah, sorry folks but I haven't uploaded the bass tabs to the site as yet. Give it 24 hours. I tabbed out 'High Rise' in response to Al's original post on this subject last week, and never having done any bass tab before, what a place to start! Since then I've done Assault & Battery & The Golden Void. So those 3 will be posted, along with the copies of Free Fall and Watching The Grass Grow that I found in the BOC-L archives (if that's OK with you Denis, I think you are the author of the Free Fall tab...) Anyone out there who'd like to contribute, please do. And I'm sure there will be errors in my tabs, corrections will be gratefully received Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:10:33 +0200, Denis Regenbrecht wrote: >BTW, it seems I can't find the bass-tab section of the starfarer site, >only the guitar-chord one... From denis at PTI-INC.DE Tue Apr 29 16:36:06 2003 From: denis at PTI-INC.DE (Denis Regenbrecht) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:36:06 +0200 Subject: High rise In-Reply-To: <200304291846.OAA01570@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Hiya, > I tabbed out 'High Rise' in response to Al's original post on this > subject > last week, and never having done any bass tab before, what a place to > start! Since then I've done Assault & Battery & The Golden Void. So > those > 3 will be posted, along with the copies of Free Fall and Watching The > Grass > Grow that I found in the BOC-L archives (if that's OK with you Denis, I > think you are the author of the Free Fall tab...) No problem. Your site is the de facto Tab/Chord-Archive for Hawkwind-music and having the tabs there is the most useful thing one can do. *g* BTW, I also tabbed High Rise (the PXR5-Version) some time ago and always forgot to post it to BOC-L. If you want the tab (to verify your own or out of curiosity), I can of course send it to you. (c)IAO D+R -- "Nothing is true - everything is permissible" Hassan I Sabha From Alogilvy at AOL.COM Tue Apr 29 18:36:35 2003 From: Alogilvy at AOL.COM (Alistair Ogilvy) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:36:35 EDT Subject: HW:high rise Message-ID: Thanks dennis for the reply. I'd forgotten that theyd done it live with Ron playing bass. I must have seen them do it with that line up as well. Damned if I can remember wether Ron was any good on bass on those occassions. (I recall him playing bass at guildford, but I,m pretty sure he didnt at Brixton ( Alien tour) ). I didnt know there was a version on Hawklords live...I've never got round to getting that..only discovered it existed when I checked the codex on Steves site. Does Harvey play the same bass line as Ade? is he any good ? Is there a recorded version with Ron on bass? Was the Hawklords tour the only time Harvey played bass on High Rise? If so it looks like there was a considerable gap between airings. Having tried out Steves Basstab for HR I reckon that could have something to do with the sheer brilliance and skill needed to master it !! (It'll keep me busy for some years yet !!!) Al From youless at LVCM.COM Wed Apr 30 00:03:30 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:03:30 -0400 Subject: High rise Message-ID: Hi everyone The bass tab is up now at http://www.starfarer.net/basstab.html Included in the line-up so far; Hurry On Sundown, Paranoia (Part 2), Mirror of Illusion, Assault & Battery, the Golden Void, High Rise, Free Fall** and Watching The Grass Grow** ** tabbed by Denis Regenbrecht, thank you Denis! I take requests and I most especially welcome contributions! Steve From mcintyre at PA.MSU.EDU Wed Apr 30 08:22:58 2003 From: mcintyre at PA.MSU.EDU (John McIntyre) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:22:58 -0400 Subject: High rise Message-ID: Denis Regenbrecht wrote: > > How many times has High Rise been > > done live? Certainly, I dont think anyone touched it seriously for > > some 20 yrs or so (From Ade leaving to Ali trying it unless I'm right > about > > Harvey. > > I have no idea how many time it has been performed, but AFAIK it wasn't > played live between the Hawklords-period and 1999, when it returned > with Ron Tree as bassist. Don't forget Nik Turner's Space Ritual's performances of the song. John McIntyre Physics - Astronomy Domine Dept Michigan State University mcintyre at pa.msu.edu From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Wed Apr 30 09:52:10 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (AerospaceAge Peacenik) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Message-ID: I got this email yesterday Oscillations by Hawkwind Release date: April 22, 2003 Label: Universal Int'l Format: Audio CD Our Price: $18.99 If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign in and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I would hit it with Memos and Demos. Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the band gets nothing from this. Anyone?? Mike ______________________________________________ The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. -- Don Marquis From colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Apr 30 10:25:32 2003 From: colin at CALLEN18.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Colin Allen) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:25:32 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Message-ID: As you suspected, this is yet another of Dodgy Dave A's reissues. The band will not see a penny from this. Colin On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik wrote: >I got this email yesterday > > >Oscillations >by Hawkwind >Release date: April 22, 2003 >Label: Universal Int'l >Format: Audio CD >Our Price: $18.99 > > >If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign in >and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I >would hit it with Memos and Demos. > >Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the band >gets nothing from this. > >Anyone?? > >Mike > >______________________________________________ >The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > >-- Don Marquis From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Wed Apr 30 10:38:32 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (AerospaceAge Peacenik) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:38:32 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert In-Reply-To: <200304301425.KAA08108@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. Go team. Mike http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008Z1VK/ref=s_e9/002-1510616-38704 51 at what's your advice put in a real Wind release Strange Trips and Pipe Dreams - ASIN is B000001LJ4 Memo's and Demos is B00005RTBC Canturbury is B000086B9F Yule is B00005QCUO You put these numbers in where it asks for "I recommend _________ instead of this product" ______________________________________________ The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. -- Don Marquis -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Colin Allen Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:26 AM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert As you suspected, this is yet another of Dodgy Dave A's reissues. The band will not see a penny from this. Colin On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik wrote: >I got this email yesterday > > >Oscillations >by Hawkwind >Release date: April 22, 2003 >Label: Universal Int'l >Format: Audio CD >Our Price: $18.99 > > >If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign in >and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I >would hit it with Memos and Demos. > >Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the band >gets nothing from this. > >Anyone?? > >Mike > >______________________________________________ >The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > >-- Don Marquis From sloterdijk at MSN.COM Wed Apr 30 09:52:07 2003 From: sloterdijk at MSN.COM (Burro Mike) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:52:07 -0300 Subject: Gig Announcement: One Eyed Bishops @ 'Festival of Sails', Keyport New Jersey 6/6 Message-ID: The One Eyed Bishops will appear July 6 at: 'The Festival of Sails' & Chowder Cookoff This event is over looking the water, with may things going on, such as a regatta, festival of sailboats, crafters, kids rides, chowder cookoff ( as seen on the food network) Oyster shucking, live music & more!!! Festival runs July 5-6 from about 9AM til 10 PM. Our Show is for the early birds this time! 10AM-12PM on Sunday!!! This is a special show as we'll be right on the water, so wake up and come out!! Make a day of it all!! Address is: American Legion Drive & First st, in Keyport, New Jersey ( not far from Holmdel) contact the event coordinator for directions & specifics @ Cathy Armstrong, Allen Consulting Inc. 732-946-2711 Help us move to an afternoon of evening slot, whether you are 'really' coming or not, by requesting that they move us @ events at allenconsulting.com As I say, whether you are really showing up or not, you could help us a lot by putting a little bit of pressure on, as we know our audience will be much bigger later in the day...Cheers & Peace...Mike Burro For complete summer tour listings see: http://theoneeyedbishops.iuma.com Also for our dates with The Brain Surgeons, see: http://www.cellsum.com From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Wed Apr 30 10:53:08 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:53:08 +0100 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert In-Reply-To: AerospaceAge Peacenik's message of Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:38:32 -0400 Message-ID: AerospaceAge Peacenik writes: > Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in > Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. > > Go team. Good plan! Cadet fofp reports execution complete. FoFP From youless at LVCM.COM Wed Apr 30 11:52:33 2003 From: youless at LVCM.COM (Steve Youles) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:52:33 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Message-ID: Done! Recommended Canterbury. You can also rate the item in question from 1 (I dislike it) to 5 Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:38:32 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik wrote: >Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in >Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. > >Go team. > >Mike > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008Z1VK/ref=s_e9/002-1510616- 38704 >51 > >at what's your advice put in a real Wind release > >Strange Trips and Pipe Dreams - ASIN is B000001LJ4 >Memo's and Demos is B00005RTBC >Canturbury is B000086B9F >Yule is B00005QCUO > >You put these numbers in where it asks for "I recommend _________ instead of >this product" From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Wed Apr 30 12:22:19 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (AerospaceAge Peacenik) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:22:19 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert In-Reply-To: <200304301552.LAA08876@listserv.spc.edu> Message-ID: Steve I did that as well! Mike ______________________________________________ The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. -- Don Marquis -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Steve Youles Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:53 AM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Done! Recommended Canterbury. You can also rate the item in question from 1 (I dislike it) to 5 Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:38:32 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik wrote: >Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in >Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. > >Go team. > >Mike > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008Z1VK/ref=s_e9/002-1510616- 38704 >51 > >at what's your advice put in a real Wind release > >Strange Trips and Pipe Dreams - ASIN is B000001LJ4 >Memo's and Demos is B00005RTBC >Canturbury is B000086B9F >Yule is B00005QCUO > >You put these numbers in where it asks for "I recommend _________ instead of >this product" From beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 30 13:07:15 2003 From: beautiful_foot at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Allen) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:07:15 +0100 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Message-ID: Why not also submit a review of this CD with full details of exactly what it is, what the sound quality is like and then suggest a few better alternatives? Then anyone finding it on Amazon will see the review there too. C. ----- Original Message ----- From: AerospaceAge Peacenik To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert > Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in > Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. > > Go team. > > Mike > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008Z1VK/ref=s_e9/002-1510616-38704 > 51 > > at what's your advice put in a real Wind release > > Strange Trips and Pipe Dreams - ASIN is B000001LJ4 > Memo's and Demos is B00005RTBC > Canturbury is B000086B9F > Yule is B00005QCUO > > You put these numbers in where it asks for "I recommend _________ instead of > this product" > > ______________________________________________ > The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > -- Don Marquis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Colin Allen > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:26 AM > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert > > > As you suspected, this is yet another of Dodgy Dave A's reissues. The band > will not see a penny from this. > > Colin > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik > wrote: > > >I got this email yesterday > > > > > >Oscillations > >by Hawkwind > >Release date: April 22, 2003 > >Label: Universal Int'l > >Format: Audio CD > >Our Price: $18.99 > > > > > >If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign > in > >and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I > >would hit it with Memos and Demos. > > > >Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the > band > >gets nothing from this. > > > >Anyone?? > > > >Mike > > > >______________________________________________ > >The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > > > >-- Don Marquis > From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Wed Apr 30 14:03:42 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (AerospaceAge Peacenik) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:03:42 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yea I agree.. I think you can't reveiw it till its out. Mike ______________________________________________ The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. -- Don Marquis -----Original Message----- From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On Behalf Of Chris Allen Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:07 PM To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Why not also submit a review of this CD with full details of exactly what it is, what the sound quality is like and then suggest a few better alternatives? Then anyone finding it on Amazon will see the review there too. C. ----- Original Message ----- From: AerospaceAge Peacenik To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert > Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in > Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. > > Go team. > > Mike > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008Z1VK/ref=s_e9/002-1510616-38704 > 51 > > at what's your advice put in a real Wind release > > Strange Trips and Pipe Dreams - ASIN is B000001LJ4 > Memo's and Demos is B00005RTBC > Canturbury is B000086B9F > Yule is B00005QCUO > > You put these numbers in where it asks for "I recommend _________ instead of > this product" > > ______________________________________________ > The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > -- Don Marquis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Colin Allen > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:26 AM > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert > > > As you suspected, this is yet another of Dodgy Dave A's reissues. The band > will not see a penny from this. > > Colin > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik > wrote: > > >I got this email yesterday > > > > > >Oscillations > >by Hawkwind > >Release date: April 22, 2003 > >Label: Universal Int'l > >Format: Audio CD > >Our Price: $18.99 > > > > > >If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign > in > >and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I > >would hit it with Memos and Demos. > > > >Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the > band > >gets nothing from this. > > > >Anyone?? > > > >Mike > > > >______________________________________________ > >The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > > > >-- Don Marquis > From dave at PARMA29.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Apr 30 16:04:08 2003 From: dave at PARMA29.FREESERVE.CO.UK (dave hall) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:04:08 +0100 Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST Message-ID: Likewise, I am leaving for Greece on the day Hawkfest starts! Argh. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Dave Law To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU Date: 29 April 2003 16:49 Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST >SEEING AS IT IS A NEAR CERTAINTY THAT I WON'T BE ABLE TO ATTEND HAWKFEST >DUE TO INNCONSIDERATE FREINDS "TYING THE KNOT" THE SAME WEEKEND (BAH >HUMBUG)COULD THOSE IN THE KNOW SAY AT THIS POINT WHETHER OR NOT THE BAND >INTEND TO DO A WARM UP SHOW, A LA THE HASTING GIG LAST YEAR AND IF SO WHEN >AND WHERE IT MIGHT BE!! >THANKS >DAVE > From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 30 16:32:25 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:32:25 -0400 Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:40:57 -0400, Nick Medford wrote: >On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:27:42 EDT, Joe Loehr wrote: > >>Could it also be a studio version vs. live version thing? >> >>In many cases, the studio version is the first version done, and >>conditions are more controlled than in concert. > >I'm sure that does have something to do with it, for many songs the studio >version feels like the template on which everything else is based, even >when live versions may be superior. I'll go with that ... even when the studio version was recorded after the song had been played live for some time. And don't forget a case like "Back On The Streets", where the live version has an entire verse that's not in the studio version. -Doug From fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK Wed Apr 30 12:12:03 2003 From: fofp at HOLYROOD.ED.AC.UK (M Holmes) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:12:03 +0100 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert In-Reply-To: Steve Youles's message of Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:52:33 -0400 Message-ID: Steve Youles writes: > Done! Recommended Canterbury. You can also rate the item in question from > 1 (I dislike it) to 5 The problem is that this could be construed by the uninitiated as a comment on the output of the band in general. What we want to get over is "Buy Hawkwind, but buy this...." FoFP From Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE Wed Apr 30 16:55:14 2003 From: Filip.Vanhuyse at PANDORA.BE (Filip Vanhuyse) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:55:14 +0200 Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST Message-ID: Me,just got news,can't get off work.So some of you guys got on holiday,I got to work. Anyway,a real bummer for me as I couldn't attend last year due to the same reason. Same thing with the new year concert.The Astoria was great for me,right between christmas and new year.The other years it's before,so again work. So,anyway,thanks for looking for hotels etc.,but will not be needing it anymore. greetings filip ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave hall" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:04 PM Subject: Re: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST > Likewise, I am leaving for Greece on the day Hawkfest starts! Argh. > > Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Law > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > Date: 29 April 2003 16:49 > Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST > > > >SEEING AS IT IS A NEAR CERTAINTY THAT I WON'T BE ABLE TO ATTEND HAWKFEST > >DUE TO INNCONSIDERATE FREINDS "TYING THE KNOT" THE SAME WEEKEND (BAH > >HUMBUG)COULD THOSE IN THE KNOW SAY AT THIS POINT WHETHER OR NOT THE BAND > >INTEND TO DO A WARM UP SHOW, A LA THE HASTING GIG LAST YEAR AND IF SO WHEN > >AND WHERE IT MIGHT BE!! > >THANKS > >DAVE > > > > > From jasret at MINDSPRING.COM Wed Apr 30 16:56:50 2003 From: jasret at MINDSPRING.COM (Doug Pearson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:56:50 -0400 Subject: HW: High rise Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:43:40 -0400, Nick Medford wrote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:10:33 +0200, Denis Regenbrecht >wrote: > >>Ron Tree (during the 1999 winter tour IIRC) > >Hmmm.... I saw HW at Croydon on that tour and I'm certain they didn't play >High Rise. I think they played "High Rise" on the early dates of the '99 winter tour, but not on the last two (including Croydon). That would be with Ron on bass. >They *did* play it at Croydon in 2001, but Alan Davey was back >in the fold by then, so he'd have been on bass. In fact they made a >terrible mess of it, Ron shaking his head when the crowd cheered at the end >anyway, and closing the gig by saying "Thanks a lot... sorry about the bit >of crap in the middle!" I think that version is just Ron (vox) / Dave (keys) / Simon (violin) / Keith (Synthi), with no rhythm section. Ron and Dave are on different rhythms, and Simon is with Ron's rhythm for the first part of the song, and Dave's rhythm for the rest. Goes to show that even the best bands sometimes hit a trainwreck :^). I think the only time Alan played bass on "High Rise" is the 'Yule Ritual' version. >Anyway, maybe Ron did play bass on this live, but I think it must have been >on some other occasion. Maybe Bernhard can enlighten us? from his list: 08.11.1999, OXFORD, ZODIAC, 80 intro / aerospaceage inferno / eedea karan / motorway city / assault & battery / golden void / anna seed / arrival in utopia / hassan i sahba / space is their / hassan i sahba / hippie / high rise / blue skin / instrumental / brainstorm 09.11.1999, NORWICH, WATERFRONT, 110 intro / aerospaceage inferno / eedea karan / motorway city / assault & battery / golden void / anna seed / arrival in utopia / hassan i sahba / space is their / hassan i sahba / hippie / high rise / blue skin / instrumental / brainstorm / warriors / right stuff / gremlin / spirit of the age / master of the universe 10.11.1999, MILTON KEYNES, WAVENTON STABLES, 115 aerospaceage inferno / eedea karan / motorway city / assault & battery / golden void / anna seed / arrival in utopia / hassan i sahba / hippie / high rise / blue skin / instrumental / brainstorm / instrumental / green finned demon / right stuff / gremlin / master of the universe / spirit of the age / jam The Hawklords version with Harvey on bass can be found on the Griffin/Dojo 'Hawklords Live' CD. It doesn't have the way-cool bass intro that sounds like a fretless (but isn't, I'm 99% sure), nor does Harvey play those super-melodic descending scales that Ade would throw in, IIRC. So the bassists *besides* Adrian Shaw would be ... Harvey - Hawklords tour Ron - 3 dates of autumn '99 tour Alan - one gig in 2000 ('Yule Ritual') plus Paul Fox - Nik/Space Ritual tour '95 -Doug jasret at mindspring.com From nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 30 18:17:12 2003 From: nickmedford at HOTMAIL.COM (Nick Medford) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:17:12 -0400 Subject: HW: High rise Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:56:50 -0400, Doug Pearson wrote: >I think they played "High Rise" on the early dates of the '99 winter tour, >but not on the last two (including Croydon). That would be with Ron on >bass. OK, and the setlists you quoted prove it. I didn't know that, I wonder how Ron handled the bass and vox, as it's quite a demanding song on both counts. > >>They *did* play it at Croydon in 2001, but Alan Davey was back >>in the fold by then, so he'd have been on bass. In fact they made a >>terrible mess of it, Ron shaking his head when the crowd cheered at the end >>anyway, and closing the gig by saying "Thanks a lot... sorry about the bit >>of crap in the middle!" > >I think that version is just Ron (vox) / Dave (keys) / Simon (violin) / >Keith (Synthi), with no rhythm section. I was there and I really can't remember whether Alan was onstage or not. I certainly remember that Richard *wasn't* onstage for that song, although whether that was intentional or not I wasn't sure- I wondered if he was supposed to come in halfway through but didn't, due to the confusion among the others. Anyway thanks for the clarification Nick From JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM Wed Apr 30 18:33:03 2003 From: JLoehr4299 at AOL.COM (Joe Loehr) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:33:03 EDT Subject: HW: (the real) Death Trap lyrics Message-ID: In a message dated 4/30/2003 2:35:54 PM Central Standard Time, jasret at MINDSPRING.COM writes: > I'll go with that ... even when the studio version was recorded after the > song had been played live for some time. And don't forget a case > like "Back On The Streets", where the live version has an entire verse > that's not in the studio version. > Also like "Motorway City," which first appeared on Live '79, then the studio version on Levitation. The Live Chronicles version of "Sea King" also has an extry verse not on the studio version. Joe From jill at THETA-ORIONIS.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Apr 30 18:25:57 2003 From: jill at THETA-ORIONIS.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Jill Strobridge) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:25:57 +0100 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert Message-ID: Tried it but I've never ordered from Amazon before and was given the following message: Important Message Unfortunately, you have not placed an order using this account. We only accept recommendations from customers who have placed orders at Amazon.com. Click here for more information on our guidelines. However in case anyone else wants to try the ASIN number for Canterbury Fayre is B000086B9F and for Memos and Demos is B00005RTBC jill ----------------------------------------------------------------- Jill Strobridge ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "AerospaceAge Peacenik" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert > Then lets ALL go over to Amazon and where it says "recommend instead" put in > Memo's and Demos or some OTHER HAWKWIND release. > > Go team. > > Mike > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008Z1VK/ref=s_e9/002-1510616-3 8704 > 51 > > at what's your advice put in a real Wind release > > Strange Trips and Pipe Dreams - ASIN is B000001LJ4 > Memo's and Demos is B00005RTBC > Canturbury is B000086B9F > Yule is B00005QCUO > > You put these numbers in where it asks for "I recommend _________ instead of > this product" > > ______________________________________________ > The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > -- Don Marquis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On > Behalf Of Colin Allen > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:26 AM > To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU > Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert > > > As you suspected, this is yet another of Dodgy Dave A's reissues. The band > will not see a penny from this. > > Colin > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400, AerospaceAge Peacenik > wrote: > > >I got this email yesterday > > > > > >Oscillations > >by Hawkwind > >Release date: April 22, 2003 > >Label: Universal Int'l > >Format: Audio CD > >Our Price: $18.99 > > > > > >If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign > in > >and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I > >would hit it with Memos and Demos. > > > >Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the > band > >gets nothing from this. > > > >Anyone?? > > > >Mike > > > >______________________________________________ > >The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > > > >-- Don Marquis > From mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM Wed Apr 30 20:43:45 2003 From: mikemont at NYCAP.RR.COM (AerospaceAge Peacenik) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:43:45 -0400 Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert In-Reply-To: <200304301612.h3UGC3Zn005950@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: I think that is where the review comes in. Once it is released a review can be posted. At that point we will see if Amazon will allow me to say that the Band gets no income from this recording, that it is rehashed doo doo and that they should check out the official releases instead. Isn't this fun????? Mike ________________________________________________ Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees. -- David Letterman ::-----Original Message----- ::From: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List [mailto:BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU]On ::Behalf Of M Holmes ::Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:12 PM ::To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU ::Subject: Re: Amazon Hawkwind Alert :: :: ::Steve Youles writes: :: ::> Done! Recommended Canterbury. You can also rate the item in ::question from ::> 1 (I dislike it) to 5 :: ::The problem is that this could be construed by the uninitiated as a ::comment on the output of the band in general. What we want to get over ::is "Buy Hawkwind, but buy this...." :: ::FoFP From yadnala at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 30 20:49:01 2003 From: yadnala at HOTMAIL.COM (alan day) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:49:01 +0000 Subject: HW:speeded up HW Message-ID: I'm listening to a Harlow gig from'74 +it sounds wonderfullly mad as it's obviously speeded up 2 da nuts MAN!! (sorry 4 shouting Arin)>>>>and I do app. 2 Capt.DB but has ne one tried this??Al. >From: Arin Komins >Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List >To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU >Subject: Re: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST >Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:59:15 -0500 > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Dave Law wrote: > >:Subject: WARM UP PRIOR TO HAWKFEST >: >:SEEING AS IT IS A NEAR CERTAINTY THAT I WON'T BE ABLE TO ATTEND HAWKFEST >:DUE TO INNCONSIDERATE FREINDS "TYING THE KNOT" THE SAME WEEKEND (BAH >:HUMBUG)COULD THOSE IN THE KNOW SAY AT THIS POINT WHETHER OR NOT THE BAND >:INTEND TO DO A WARM UP SHOW, A LA THE HASTING GIG LAST YEAR AND IF SO WHEN >:AND WHERE IT MIGHT BE!! >:THANKS >:DAVE > >Um, Dave.... > >Could you please not shout? (basic netiquette: all caps is the equivalent >of shouting, really should be avoided.) > >Also, you might want to use the appropriate subject line filter for your >posts (in this case HW: ), as it makes life easier for >those of us who are using the listserv's filtering system. > >Arin >(not a moderator, but just asking ;-) ) >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu >Manager of Web Systems Architecture >University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 >1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 >------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile From yadnala at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 30 21:08:35 2003 From: yadnala at HOTMAIL.COM (alan day) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 01:08:35 +0000 Subject: Hawkwind on LBC [Radio] Message-ID: Yeah Ben!! Tape It COs I can't!!!I havin trouble loggin on to MCP too>>> Help?Al. >FroYeah Ben!!m: "Ben F. 55018" >Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List >To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU >Subject: Hawkwind on LBC [Radio] >Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:16:48 +0100 > >Could anyone supply the date and time of this interview on LBC 97,3 FM? > >I dont think it's on Mission Control yet. > >Cheers > >Ben _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=186&DI=1059 From yadnala at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 30 21:57:41 2003 From: yadnala at HOTMAIL.COM (alan day) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 01:57:41 +0000 Subject: HW LLG Group review/starfairer Message-ID: Nice review on this fab site..thanks guys! I'd have tried to make the gig as I know that seeing them is a real treat,especially in a nice pub!! Does Huw ever advertise these gigs? He played for a few weeks in Fulham 2 years ago .. I only found outabout that by accident??!! They play agreat!A+ show when they;re on form.. Broken arms 'n' legs??He pisses it!!Roll on Mr>>>>>^^^^^^^^^^ >From: AerospaceAge Peacenik >Reply-To: BOC/Hawkwind Discussion List >To: BOC-L at LISTSERV.SPC.EDU >Subject: Amazon Hawkwind Alert >Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:10 -0400 > >I got this email yesterday > > >Oscillations >by Hawkwind >Release date: April 22, 2003 >Label: Universal Int'l >Format: Audio CD >Our Price: $18.99 > > >If this is another dodgy compliation where Dave gets nada.. you can sign >in >and recommend "another product instead" by entering the "ain" number.. I >would hit it with Memos and Demos. > >Maybe we can steer some new recruits away from this one .. again IF the >band >gets nothing from this. > >Anyone?? > >Mike > >______________________________________________ >The chief obstacle to the progress of the human race is the human race. > >-- Don Marquis _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/mobile